testers, inspectors, & afci's

Merry Christmas
Status
Not open for further replies.
electricmanscott

electricmanscott

Senior Member
Location
Boston, MA
Occupation
Massachusetts Master Electrician, one man show.
I just failed a final inspection an a new house. The reason cited was one of the AFCI breakers would not trip. I went out to the house and hit the test button and of course it tripped. I called the inspector to find out what the deal was. His tester would not trip the afci. Thanks to this site I know that the button is the only UL approved way to test the breaker but I called SQ D to double check. I relayed this info to the insp but he insists his tester is the right way and if it works on one breaker it has to work on all otherwise the breaker is bad. I got his tester info and called Ideal. They acknowledge what I tell them and confirm the tester is not compatible with SQ D breakers. There is a chip upgrade for the tester but even with that the button is the "Official" way to test the breaker. Called back inspector let him know all this info and STILL he would not sign off as he felt he was putting the town on the line. Told him AGAIN manuf of breaker and tester agree breaker button test is fine and valid and he has no choice but to sign off. Reluctantly he agrees. Here is the kicker, he tells me all the other guys usually change out the breakers till they work with his tester. I told him there is no chance of me doing this as I already now have two hours into this non issue that I can't really bill to anyone. Moral of story, don't beleive everything an inspector tells you.
 
Re: testers, inspectors, & afci's

Originally posted by electricmanscott:
Moral of story, don't believe everything an inspector tells you.
Click to expand...
Sorry Scott, inspectors are human and you got a bad one. Most will listen to reason and are intelligent, reasonable people. :D
 
Re: testers, inspectors, & afci's

Scott
You did something the Boston Redsox did.... you were persistent and finally won... only you did not have to wait as long as they did :D .
Your persistence paid off, and you actually were able to persuade this inspector. Think of how you feel, and he feels the same way. As long as he believes what he thinks is correct,he will stick to his "guns", till proven otherwise such as this case.
 
Re: testers, inspectors, & afci's

This is just my opinion. You were right, since his tester didn't work with your type of breaker but I strongly agree with testing AFCI and GFCI circuits at the outlets and not the breaker this helps to ensure theat the device will work on the equipment that it is suppost to be providing protection for. We are only human and most companys have many people working on one home who is to say that something is not hooked up properly or there is a bad connection somewhere.
 
Re: testers, inspectors, & afci's

Does anyone else find it peculiar that one brand and another don't trip on the same tester? They should all be looking for the same signatures, right?

Glad I didn't drop $30 on one of those testers! :D

I wonder if omitting some of the arc signatures results in a less-nuisance-prone product, resulting in more units sold? Hmm... :D

Scott, it seems like we've had the same problem, but I wasn't personally involved. Interestingly, it was a different brand though. Same deal, inspector's wall tester wouldn't trip, so he red-tagged it.
 
Re: testers, inspectors, & afci's

It's sounding more and more like these "nuisance trips" only occur with certain BRANDS of AFCI's. Like I've said in the other thread, I've never had one single nuisance trip. Granted, I only have about 30+ houses with them out there but that's about 70 AFCI breakers. 0 out of 70 says something!?

I would really like to know what brands are giving you guys these problems. Could we run a little poll and see if it points toward a certain brand or brands? Reply with the brand you use and an estimate of how many breakers you have installed and an estimate of just how many trips we are talking about here. ESPECIALLY if you haven't had any problems At All, Curious Minds Want/ Need to Know!

I'll start!


Sqaure D Homeline: 70 Installed, 0 trips

Dave
 
Re: testers, inspectors, & afci's

Sq D homline, # installed ?. Trips, none that I am aware of. Siemens, a bunch installed. Trips, 3. George SQ D told me the only UL approved way to test their breaker is with the test button. "If the button trips, sign the permit!" Charlie I actually want to give the inspector credit as he is due some. He tested every receptacle, and is very thourough. Unfortunately he is the exception rather than the rule in that regard. He may be a little misguided in some of his ideas but nothing I couldn't deal with.
 
Re: testers, inspectors, & afci's

George here is what I found at the Sq D website.

The AFCI tester I have fails to trip the Square D AFCI circuit breaker. Is the circuit breaker bad?

Answer The only AFCI circuit breaker test we recommend and support is the UL approved push-to-test (PTT) button on the circuit breaker.
That being said, we understand that there are several commercially available testers that claim to test AFCI circuit breakers. These testers do not actually create an arc but rather attempt to trick the AFCI circuit breaker into tripping by sending a simulated arc. Our digital design is very effective at identifying true arcing conditions and some testers arc simulation are evaluated as not truly dangerous arcs.

If the PTT on the Square D AFCI circuit breaker functions properly then you should contact the manufacturer of your tester. Some manufacturers have upgraded their arc simulation to something more sophisticated which more closely resembles a true arcing condition

[ January 30, 2005, 09:18 PM: Message edited by: electricmanscott ]
 
Re: testers, inspectors, & afci's

This AFCI testing issue is very interesting. Here in Florida the inspections are done before the power is on so the inspectors don't even own testers! (Strange, I know!) They just look in the panel to see if they are installed.

Poll results so far:

Square D Home Line: 0 Trips
Siemens: 3 Trips

Home Line is still Perfect!

We Need more Input!
:(
 
Re: testers, inspectors, & afci's

That's a pretty persuasive response from SQ D, Scott. I'd buy that. I'll certainly remember this, and use it when it comes up again. It was a Siemens breaker in my case, though. Good argument for any brand, really.

Dave, what are we including in our tally? Defectives out of the box, or defectives that generate a warranty call months down the line?
 
Re: testers, inspectors, & afci's

George, I'm trying to determin if a certain Brand is causing Most of the "nuisance Trips", defective or not. And also what Brands are Not "nuisance" tripping.
Maybe I should have started a seperate thread, since this one is mainly about the "Testing" of AFCI's.

It's still...

Square D Home Line: 0 Trips
Siemens: 3 Trips
 
Re: testers, inspectors, & afci's

My Ideal GFCI/AFCI combo plug in tester 61-056 has tripped Sq D AFCI breakers. Go figure. It does say on the instructions that it mimics some forms of arcing. Which seems to validate the info from Sq D.
When the plug in testers work, they are a great way to see if a recep is on the AFCI c/b.
It is a convience tool and that's how we view them. You can take a regular 3 light tester, plug it in and turn off the AFCI and accomplish the same thing.

The higher Ideal tester, 61-155 is supposed to perform a more sophisticated test. High current pulse within 8 consecutive half cycles per UL 1436. I get the idea by reading both instruction sheets, that this is a different test than is done with the 61-056. Does anyone have any experience with this model?

61-056
http://www.idealindustries.com/pdf/ND%203860-2%2061-056%20ins%20204.pdf

61-155
http://www.idealindustries.com/pdf/nd3595_2.pdf
 
Re: testers, inspectors, & afci's

By Larry: When the plug in testers work
Click to expand...
When ITE's AFCI's first came out the plug in tester would trip them as they had a 5ma GFCI in them but these AFCI's were also prone to false tripping and were recalled. Now they have the 30ma GFP in them and the plug in three light tester will not trip them.
 
Re: testers, inspectors, & afci's

But I should add that they still nuisance trip on cirtain loads that produce spikes into the circuit. and sometimes a surge suppressor will cause them to trip again when a coil load is switched off.
 
Re: testers, inspectors, & afci's

SQ D`S recent problem with afci`s is a perfect example.The blue PTT button types were recalled and now replaced with green PTT breakers.Could it be that this is the case ???I myself have seen many blue button series afci`s fail on the PTT.As a matter of fact our largest builder is now setting up appointments with homeowners that we have installed speced SQ D panels/breakers in and getting paid $$$$ / home.seems minimal but we did over 2,000 homes last year and 1/2 wew SQ D speced :D
 
Re: testers, inspectors, & afci's

The saga continues. Rather than sign off,as the inspector said he would do, he went to the "Town Fathers" and made it an international incident. :roll: He refused to sign the permit thus no CO for the house, no money from the bank and nobody moves in. Again I called SQ D, Ideal, and this time even UL. I also got tons of info from the web on testing the afci's from the IAEI web sites UL corner. Brought it all to the builder to make my case. HE called the inspector who acknowledge everything we said and also called Ideal , SQ D and Mass Board of Electricians. Bottom line everyone agrees that the test button trips the breaker and therefore breaker is fine. So what does he want us to do? Replace the breaker, have him check it again with his tester that doesn't work! If the tester does not trip this one he'll sign off and let it go. If it were up to me I would have said go to hell but the builder just wants to get this done and he will pay me to go change the breaker. Change it out, inspectors puts his tester in, no trip. :roll: he signs off takes a $25.00 reinspection fee and everyone is happy. What a bunch of bull. :mad: The good news is the builder is taking all the info I got and taking it to the town Selectman to try and get rid of this guy.
 
Re: testers, inspectors, & afci's

I would go straight to a lawyer and sue the town for defimation of carector.He is doing damage to your name and you have support to prove him wrong.This could be worth millions.
 
Re: testers, inspectors, & afci's

George, who knows. I did actually swap it though. I thought about not doing it but since the builder was paying me I felt obligated to do it.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top