testing fuses with a wiggy

[iaov]

Wiggy

Wiggy

For most of the years I worked in industry we were never required to use any kind of PPE. Recently they require face shields, fire resistant clothing, insulated gloves. Ahh!! I know we have had this discussion in other places on this forum, but I will say it again. Our profession comes with a certain amount of risks. I"ve always said this wouldn't be a bad job except for the hieghts and the electricity!! I am an old electrician and I've gotten that way by never being a bold electrician. However working on live equipment comes with the territory and to require getting dressed up like a space alien to check a fuse is silly. There were times when wearing the stuff made sense. There were times when it didn't. Life is a risky endeavor no matter what we do. We get payed the big bucks because some of what we do is scary!!

 

[Pierre C Belarge]

Here we go AGAIN! LET'S get REAL!!!!!
I'm an OLD BOLD Electrician and still ticking at age 58 and 35 years in business.
I work safe and work on allot of live circuits.
I have found that by just ohming out circuits sometimes gives you false readings.
There are safe ways to work live and I use them. Those of you that call yourselves electricians and say you don't work on live circuits I believe are not being truthful. You just don't won't to be challenged on this form.
I use the Ideal tester that checks voltage from 110v to 280v and also checks continuity. I have found they are great testers and have good luck with them. Of course I also have about ten meters for different situations. I also use the plug in GFCI tester that cost around $120 but is a great tester.
Just wanted to put in my two cents worth and I'm NOT going to reply to any arguments on this subject. But I really don't understand how those of you that call yourselves electricians but say you don't work on "any" live circuits can do your job correctley.
Maybe we should call ourselves Non Live Volt Wire Pullers and just call Plummer's to check live voltage.
No Semper Fi this time. I'm a little tired of arguing with this form.
I'm OUT

My question was not put forth saying I or others do not work live. The question was/is, WHEN working live, especially 480V, what PPE do you use.
Yes, in the past I worked live without the PPE. Today you will not see me doing that. Even as an inspector, if an electrician on the job starts to open a panel, I will stop him while I am there if there is no safety...they think I am nuts...I tell them that on "my watch", no one is getting hurt needlessly.

3 weeks ago, a guy I worked with more than 20 years ago was very seriously injured on the job. He is 56 years old (and was a good electrician) - you mention you are 58. He did not go to work that day thinking anything would happen to him.
He is still in the hospital (I do not think he will ever go back to work if he survives this).

So, I ask, what kind of PPE do you use when it is needed to work live?


Brady and others: If you do not like my question, so be it. But if it gets others who lurk here or even just one other to start thinking about their (and their family) safety and well being, then I am happy.


Roger's advice about not responding to or even reading posts that irritate one is very good. I started doing that not too long ago.

Brady, one more thing. We, including you, are all entitled to our opinions here. Even if others may not like them.

 

[cschmid]

Now I am feeling dumb again I thought Eric ask the question and after re-reading it was Pierre so thanks Pierre for the reminder. when the first PLC's came out we were instructed not to use the wiggy while testing the circuits on them because the wiggy would damage the output cards...So we all got some Simpson 260's and I now use and Ideal DMM my last one was a fluke..I have not used a wiggy in yrs and see that they really have limited use because their accuracy. I also would not test a fuse on an energized circuit just due to the fact the potential is there how ever little it is. my DMM give accurate readings and I feel safer with it. I still have my Simpson and it is as good today as when I got it in the early eighties..I have been at this for 25 + years now..

 

[brian john]

have limited use because their accuracy

95% plus of all electricians have NO USE FOR ACCURACY, if they did they would have their equipment calibrated. Most use a DMM for a go no go tester. For this purpose a wiggy properly applied is a better tool in my opinion.

I own and carry a multitude of testers at this moment I have at least 4 DMMs on my truck and 2-Fluke 435's, 1-Fluke 1750 and several RPM's (all calibrated)but when I need to know energized or dead it is a wiggy type tester.

 

[iwire]

After all we are Electricians and professionals who choose to work and fix jobs as we see fit.

If you are the owner of the company you can work live all you want, it's your choice and the OSHA rules really do not apply to you.

But if your having your employees work live I think that is something that should change.

I never said I never worked live, I have said I am making a effort to change that and remind others they do not have to work live.

Electricians are not solders, we should not be expected to risk our lives to save someone the inconvenience of their power being out for a time.

I really value my life with my family more then I value leaving the lights on in someones office.

As a former Marine I have calmed down some but still a real man.

Risking your life to save another's life is being a real man.

Risking you life just to save a business a couple of bucks is not.

JMO

 

[George Stolz]

Using the Wiggy in this manner is no different...

Thanks Tom, I should have thought about that more, you're right - glad you said something.

I hadn't had any crow for a while, I was beginning to get scared.

 

[benaround]

George,

I'll take a little off your hands, My head was locked into the Wiggy trying to

restart a single phasing motor and not being able to do it, it's all in the solinoid.

 

[cschmid]

Brian when you quoted that section it reads rough, wow I guess I need to proof better..There is allot of work where accurate readings are not necessary but on VFD's, servo valves, and stuff like that accuracy is a must..I also own a couple of ideal testers like wiggy's they are like brand new no one wants to use them.. I don't carry all my testers just too many and I even own an oscilloscope, dang this is an expensive profession.. I need to learn how to trouble shot from my boat then I really got down.

 

[Twoskinsoneman]

If you are the owner of the company you can work live all you want, it's your choice and the OSHA rules really do not apply to you.

But if your having your employees work live I think that is something that should change.

I never said I never worked live, I have said I am making a effort to change that and remind others they do not have to work live.

Electricians are not solders, we should not be expected to risk our lives to save someone the inconvenience of their power being out for a time.

I really value my life with my family more then I value leaving the lights on in someones office.



Risking your life to save another's life is being a real man.

Risking you life just to save a business a couple of bucks is not.

JMO

Very well said. This is exactly how I feel.
Save the life-riskying for what matters...not making someone else rich...

 

[brian john]

Brian when you quoted that section it reads rough, wow I guess I need to proof better..There is allot of work where accurate readings are not necessary but on VFD's, servo valves, and stuff like that accuracy is a must..I also own a couple of ideal testers like wiggy's they are like brand new no one wants to use them.. I don't carry all my testers just too many and I even own an oscilloscope, dang this is an expensive profession.. I need to learn how to trouble shot from my boat then I really got down.

And what percentage of electricians work in this end of the field 5-10% MAYBE and of that what percentage regularly have their equipment calibrated?

I am thankful it is this way as most of my customers are electrical contractors, or GC's that need problems resolved that were created by a small percentage of the 90-95% percentage

 

[cschmid]

very true and I am also glad..I really enjoy this type of work though..I am also glad allot of electricains find wirings houses enjoyable too..I enjoy being in the commerical and industrial sector..

 

[DLTravis]

Since this is an open forum I will force anyone who reads this to hear my opinion :grin:

NFPA-70E is not adhere able it simply puts the responsibility on the employee to make the correct choices in PPE and whether or not to work live i.e. less liability to employers. I feel very confident working on live circuits and think it is a fact of being an electrician. I would also like to totally disagree with the posters who state to paraphrase "if you don't agree with the post stay out" this is the kind of mentality that allows publications like the NFPA-70E to become law without the system of checks and balances which are vital to making rules which are adhere able and simply make sense. Most of the support I see for these rules comes from employers who want less liability and ?suits? in the profession (inspectors, etc.) who don't have to practice what they preach.

What is less safe?
1) Working a live (has to be live to t-shoot) 480 ckt in the traditional fashion.
or
2) Suiting up in a 15 cal suit on a 100 degree day on top of a crane in a steel mill where it is 120 degrees ambient where you can't see because your face shield is so fogged up and these darn gloves can barely hold the leads.....

I'll end my rant for now as this stuff gets my blood pressure up a little!! Even more than the occasional jolt.

That's all for now. Thanks for taking the time to read my ramblings.

Travis

 

[cschmid]

welcome Travis.. I agree there needs to be a happy medium.. But I must read my PPE requirements again because a no-max shirt and 500 v gloves with a hard hat and face shield are not all that bad. the suits and stuff are for voltages beyond the average Joe electrician.. So I must re-read the OSHA requirements to make sure I am interpreting them correctly..

 

[DLTravis]

welcome Travis.. I agree there needs to be a happy medium.. But I must read my PPE requirements again because a no-max shirt and 500 v gloves with a hard hat and face shield are not all that bad. the suits and stuff are for voltages beyond the average Joe electrician.. So I must re-read the OSHA requirements to make sure I am interpreting them correctly..

15 cal suits are pretty light weight and nomex (fire retardant clothing) is tolerable most of the time. But the situation I described is one I have found myself in and it did not take long for the PPE to come off as I felt I was in more danger following "the rules". This is just one example of many times I have nixed the PPE.

To really get into a discussion about what PPE needs to be used you must first know what kind of arc flash hazard exists. These calculations can be found on many sources. However, these too are a little hocus pocus (sorry for the use of technical terms). I?m finding that the supposed experts on this are not all that great. Here?s my experience with two employers ? We paid a consultant to do an arc flash hazard analysis they happily took our money and started the work. They then hit some sort of road block (i.e. not knowing the z of a xfmr or whatever lame excuse they came up with). The project gets put on hold indefinitely and in the mean time the electricians are up to their own devices to decide what PPE to wear.

To again end my little rant on the light side I?m sure it?ll be the fast motorcycles I like to ride that?ll get me anyway.

Thanks
Travis

 

[cschmid]

Ahh a fellow biker. You are correct but even if you do not have an arc flash calculation you can reasonably size up the situation for proper protection.. there are only a few instants that a arc flash calculation is needed and most are for after the fact situations. the other is if you are a company that is on a OSHA improvement program in MN it is call MN-SHARP. The average electrician can use the basic outfit due to the nature of their work..

 

[tom baker]

The old method of cross checking voltage is very dangerous and not necessary. The safest and easy way to check if the fuses are blown is to turn off the power and check with a continuity tester. I prefer the Fluke T+Pro, its Cat III rated, with voltage vibrates,lights up and beebs, and does continuity, AC voltage, tests GFCIs and has a built in LED light, and does phase rotation, locally the cost is $70.00

IMO wiggys are dangerous and should not be used. Some like the wiggy as it is not effected by ghost voltages, but thats what makes it so dangerous. See this article http://us.fluke.com/usen/promotions/solenoid

I don't sell meters but I like the Flukes, plus they are a local company in Everett WA.
Check it out:http://us.fluke.com/usen/products/Fluke+TPRO+T.htm

 

[Pierre C Belarge]

Since this is an open forum I will force anyone who reads this to hear my opinion :grin:

NFPA-70E is not adhere able it simply puts the responsibility on the employee to make the correct choices in PPE and whether or not to work live i.e. less liability to employers. I feel very confident working on live circuits and think it is a fact of being an electrician. I would also like to totally disagree with the posters who state to paraphrase "if you don't agree with the post stay out" this is the kind of mentality that allows publications like the NFPA-70E to become law without the system of checks and balances which are vital to making rules which are adhere able and simply make sense. Most of the support I see for these rules comes from employers who want less liability and ?suits? in the profession (inspectors, etc.) who don't have to practice what they preach.

What is less safe?
1) Working a live (has to be live to t-shoot) 480 ckt in the traditional fashion.
or
2) Suiting up in a 15 cal suit on a 100 degree day on top of a crane in a steel mill where it is 120 degrees ambient where you can't see because your face shield is so fogged up and these darn gloves can barely hold the leads.....

I'll end my rant for now as this stuff gets my blood pressure up a little!! Even more than the occasional jolt.

That's all for now. Thanks for taking the time to read my ramblings.

Travis

You are new here, and you are always welcome to discuss your point of view.


I am glad to see you are comfortable and confident in working live...that is probably the first step to being able to do so.


If you are so uncomfortable in the equipment necessary to conform to the requirements for safety, insteading of complaining, maybe you can be part of the solution. Try...I repeat try to contact some of the PPE providers and see if you can help them with their research in providing better PPE for the job necessary. You never know what may come of it.

Travis
Anyone who pays attention in this industry knows that working live sometimes is necessary, I do not begrudge one from doing so when it is necessary, even on higher voltage circuits.
What does concern me is someone getting hurt, because improper training has that person convinced that if he/she does not perform the task they may loose their job, they may loose their stature as a man or whatever other reason they think leads them to work this stuff live.
We all come to work expecting to go home the same way we came to work. The boss also wants the same. But there are some unscrupulous bosses who are willing to risk employees lives, knowing that they may only receive small fines if a death should occur. A risk in business they seem to be willing to take. I wonder if some of them would be willing to actually risk their lives as opposed to their wallets.

The improper training I mention is not electrical training. It is the training that some get which makes them think it is okay to sacrifice their lives, their family's security and whatever for the sake of the job. That is poor training.


You see, we can all rant :grin:
Does the proper method take more time and cost more money. Hell ya! Aren't you worth it?

 

[iaov]

15 cal suits are pretty light weight and nomex (fire retardant clothing) is tolerable most of the time. But the situation I described is one I have found myself in and it did not take long for the PPE to come off as I felt I was in more danger following "the rules". This is just one example of many times I have nixed the PPE.

To really get into a discussion about what PPE needs to be used you must first know what kind of arc flash hazard exists. These calculations can be found on many sources. However, these too are a little hocus pocus (sorry for the use of technical terms). I?m finding that the supposed experts on this are not all that great. Here?s my experience with two employers ? We paid a consultant to do an arc flash hazard analysis they happily took our money and started the work. They then hit some sort of road block (i.e. not knowing the z of a xfmr or whatever lame excuse they came up with). The project gets put on hold indefinitely and in the mean time the electricians are up to their own devices to decide what PPE to wear.

To again end my little rant on the light side I?m sure it?ll be the fast motorcycles I like to ride that?ll get me anyway.

Thanks
Travis

MY Harley is much more likely to kill me than electrons are. IAOV

 

[brian john]

Tom:

I have no evidence to refute Fluke's Article, additionally as I have mentioned I own loads of Fluke equipment, my tool case looks like a display case for a Fluke Sales rep. But manufactures have known to be bias in self serving "SAFETY" articles.

As I have said to date I know of no instances where the use of wiggy style testers have resulted in injury to electricians or the wiggy when properly used. I would bet big dollars wiggys have saved more lives over the years than Fluke's DMM's just due to the fact they have been around longer, and are still sturdier and more prevalent on construction sites than DMMs.

PPE is necessary and should be utilized, but in my expierence most electrical injuries from faults that happen to electricians are because the electrician was not competent to perform the work he was attempting.

Wear PPE and use proper tools.
Minimize exposure to energized equipment.
Just because you are licensed DOES NOT QUALIFY YOU to work on all electrical equipment.
Be careful and take your time, many of the jobs I have been on where faults occurred due to human error could have been avoided had the participants taken a few moments to thoroughly think out the job (and in many/most cases walked away from the job), instead of rushing into it.

 

[jim dungar]

I just finished my annual safety class the other day. One stat really caught my eye.

The predominant cause of death by electricity:
In non-professional "electricians" it is electrical shock.
In professional electricians it is arc flash.