Testing GFCI?s & EFCI's:

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al hildenbrand said:
From the beginning of the push by "interested individuals and groups" to establish the "idea" of Arc Fault Circuit Interruption as a device that is required to be installed in Dwellings, the "interested individuals and groups" have published claims about what AFCIs do. The bulk of the published claims had nothing to do with any documentation from the actual AFCI hardware and software, as, in the beginning, no working AFCI devices were available to be purchased and installed. The bulk of the published claims were based upon other claims of the POSSIBILITY of what the AFCI will do in the future. The first requirements placed in the 1999 National Electrical Code (NEC) were written, published and adopted into local law by various (and many) jurisdictions across America in this initial period of years, with a NEC mandated delay of enforcement until Jan. 1, 2002, because there were no working AFCIs available to buy and install in Dwellings AT THE TIME OF THE WRITING.

Once actual AFCI devices became available to purchase and install, all documentation was notably lacking any factual information about the working of the device, and it became immediately clear that each manufacturer had an individual and PROPRIETARY solution to the "idea" of AFCI.

As I said, in my previous post in this thread, this Forum had a couple manufacturer's representatives join and participate in discussion with us. I, for one, and many others here, entreated being shown ANY documentation of how they work. Nothing was released to us. Think about that. A group of highly educated, licensed and credentialed, curious professionals that work daily to install and service this new product are denied, by silence or even direct obfuscation, the information to be effective in providing good service to the end user of the manufacturer's AFCI.

The manufacturer's have stonewalled any technical AFCI information to the installers and end users.

An advanced technology should not require the blind faith of its users and/or installers.

Yes. You bet I have doubts about the manufacturer's claims.
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The entire concept used to push AFCIs into the NEC was based upon false pretense. None of it has ever been proven to reflect the real world, even NRTL testing found evidence countering the original claims. Its all pure speculation to prop up a marketing strategy. The word arc means another "device" which in turn equal another price point separate from GFCIs which in truth do the same thing.

At this point there is absolutly no reason why a 30 or 50ma GFP sub main or 5ma GFCI breaker can not provide the same level of fire protection.
 
To save me looking (I?m idle) what would be the price of fitting an AFCI to an installation?

As new(ish) technology with as some of you confirm a dubious heritage, how much extra do your clients have to pay? I wouldn?t be too happy to be told ?I?m not certain but I think it works.?

When I first rewired my house I bought two RCCD?s as they were called then, the wife was livid at me for spending the money. As newly weds we had precious little money. I worked out the price in today?s money with inflation, ?557 each!
 
Tony S said:
To save me looking (I?m idle) what would be the price of fitting an AFCI to an installation?

As new(ish) technology with as some of you confirm a dubious heritage, how much extra do your clients have to pay? I wouldn?t be too happy to be told ?I?m not certain but I think it works.?

When I first rewired my house I bought two RCCD?s as they were called then, the wife was livid at me for spending the money. As newly weds we had precious little money. I worked out the price in today?s money with inflation, ?557 each!
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How mcuh does an RCD cost today?
 
Tony S said:
To save me looking (I?m idle) what would be the price of fitting an AFCI to an installation?
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Depends on the brand of panel you install. I normally install either Square D homeline or Cutler BR type panels to get the AFCI breakers cheaper. I can get 15-20 amp breakers for around $40 ea. Now it depends on the number of circuits that require AFCI protection. 2014 NEC it's just about all of them ( single pole 120V ).

We use more individual circuits here because of the lower voltage so you can end up with 20-30 single pole circuit for say a 3000 sq ft home. If it's only 20 circuits it would cost an additional $800.00 US for materials ( just the breakers ).
 
GFCI breakers will typically be half that, or less.
Plain breakers can be really cheap if you get them bundled with the load center at a big box store.
 
Tony S said:
As new(ish) technology with as some of you confirm a dubious heritage. I wouldn?t be too happy to be told ?I?m not certain but I think it works.?
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I really don't tell the customer about any doubts I may have about the AFCI functioning. It's easier just to tell them it's required by Code.
 
mbrooke said:
How mcuh does an RCD cost today?
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About ?20 for the type I have in my DB. Some are as low as ?5, they still have to meet the same specification.

They?ve been tested several times over the last few years using the ramp test method. No variation in threshold or response times.
One is a little bit sensitive on threshold but it?s not causing any problems so I?m not going to replace it. In fact I?d rather it be sensitive.
 
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Tony S said:
About ?20 for the type I have in my DB. Some are as low as ?5, they still have to meet the same specification.

They?ve been tested several times over the last few years using the ramp test method. No variation in threshold or response times.
One is a little bit sensitive on threshold but it?s not causing any problems so I?m not going to replace it. In fact I?d rather it be sensitive.
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So I could in theory by two 60amp RCDs for $30, that being $60, and provide fire protection to an entire home vs $1,000 for a panel full of AFCIs that may not even have GFP. Please tell me how is this not criminal and why do Americans put up with that?
 
Tony S said:
Oh dear me, I?ve just spat my drink all over the monitor!

I?m sorry, but I really wouldn?t like to be in that position.
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There ya are! That is exactly the feeling, and thought.

It really is quite amazing to me that the august entities that have promulgated this regulatory morass have actually continued to succeed in expanding it.

:ashamed1:
 
Archy, we?re old friends and you know my interest in all electrical systems. Now I?m retired I need to do something.

al hildenbrand said:
There ya are! That is exactly the feeling, and thought.

It really is quite amazing to me that the august entities that have promulgated this regulatory morass have actually continued to succeed in expanding it.

:ashamed1:
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What I?ve noticed is the NEC code brigade is backing off due to the lack of sound argument.
The pro testing lobby is gathering itself at last.

The AFCI is a fudged solution to an underlying problem caused by lack of confidence in installations in general. If EC?s could be certain that every (say) radial circuit was sound in both continuity and insulation resistance where are the arcs going to come from?

Archy does domestic installations (amongst his many other talents), I?m sure he can prove an installation/modification he has done is sound with documented test results. It would seem most EC?s on your side of the pond couldn?t.

Now as to what we do from hereon I don?t know. We have the IET, you have the NEC to contend with. Both are as stubborn as mules when trying to get them to move in a sensible direction, they go in the direction of the biggest carrot on offer. Our old friends the manufacturers are holding the carrot.

The big difference is the amount of dissent against what is known to be a knee jerk reaction to an assumed problem.
 
Tony S said:
...
The AFCI is a fudged solution to an underlying problem caused by lack of confidence in installations in general. ...
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In my opinion it is a solution based on faulty fire cause and origin stats.

Also not so much a commentary on the installation, but rather the degradation (or even modifications made by unqualified persons) of the installation over time....the faulty fire cause and origin stats show that 85% of the dwelling unit fires that are said to be of electrical origin occur in dwelling units over 20 years old.
 
Tony S said:
The AFCI is a fudged solution to an underlying problem caused by lack of confidence in installations in general. If EC?s could be certain that every (say) radial circuit was sound in both continuity and insulation resistance where are the arcs going to come from?

Archy does domestic installations (amongst his many other talents), I?m sure he can prove an installation/modification he has done is sound with documented test results. It would seem most EC?s on your side of the pond couldn?t.

The big difference is the amount of dissent against what is known to be a knee jerk reaction to an assumed problem.
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With all the testing and documentation have you managed to eliminate electrical fires in the UK?

The answer is "no" you have not.

Of the electrical fires that I have seen no amount of testing would have helped. The building wiring had nothing to do with the fire.

You get someone that wants to use a space heater and it's to far from a receptacle and they buy a cheap dollar store extension cord and cover it with a throw rug and then set a chair on this and you get an arc (crushed extension cord) at a place where you have everything necessary for a fire ( ignition, fuel, oxygen).

This is the type of crap those AFCIs hope to prevent.

We are allowed to use testing to verify an installation is safe under certain circumstances. When a remodeling project or addition is done without permits and inspections it is possible to have the wiring tested and certified as safe. Here you need both a licensed electrical engineer and a licensed electrician. You have to do whatever testing the engineer thinks necessary because he/she is the one that has to sign off on the job. Engineers don't like to do this sort of thing because after testing of insulation and continuity there can still be code violations that can't be seen.
 
Neither an AFCI or an RCD will prevent what is the chief incendiary culprit of electrical fires

A glowing connection.

~RJ~
 
?What was the cause of the fire??
?Electrical?
No forensic enquiry unless a death occurs or arson is suspected. It?s quick and easy.

The IET and NEC have both reacted the same way, more regulation applied to different but needless issues.

But, I?m sorry I stand by what I say, a structured test regime is needed for every new installation or any alteration.
 
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