That one little thing that totally ruins the job.

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Coppersmith

Coppersmith

Senior Member
Location
Tampa, FL, USA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
So I'm replacing a main breaker in a GE resi panel and it's going as planned. Breaker is fastened down, line wires are torqued, load side buss bar fasteners are tightened. I'm giving it a once over before I push the meter back into the socket and move on to the next job.

Then I start to think: I don't have a torque value for the load side buss bar fasteners, maybe I should make sure they feel tight. (Don't want any arcing.) I put the screwdriver in and turn ever so slightly and BOOM! Fastener snaps and the job is in a world of hurt. Tried drilling out and re-threading, just wallowed the hole. Tried to get the part from supply house, not available. Stared at it for a while, nothing changed. Stomped my feet and cursed a lot, scared a dog, still nothing changed.

Now resolved that my morning job will wipe out my afternoon job, I go get parts to swap out the panel guts and explain to the HO why she has to pay a lot more money than initially discussed. Call my afternoon client (who I sub for a lot and is very important) and push our appointment to the next day.
 
Aleman said:
That really is a bummer. But I don't understand why the client should pay for the replacement part. Is that a customary practice?
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Fulthrotl said:
'cause it was a defective panel?
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Old panel, old screws. The side that snapped was also the failed side of the breaker that had experienced overheating. If they snap off due to metal fatigue that's not on me, it's because the parts need to be replaced. Only possible way to get the panel operational immediately was to replace guts. I think it was fair to expect payment for doing the additional work.
 
Here's another way to look at it: Client had a problem (dead panel) and I suggested the least expensive way to attempt to resolve the problem (replace main breaker). This solution failed due to the age and condition of the panel. I then attempted to resolve the problem in the next least expensive way (guts replacement). This succeeded and saved the client from having to pay for the most expensive way to resolve the problem (full panel change).
 
Coppersmith said:
Old panel, old screws. The side that snapped was also the failed side of the breaker that had experienced overheating. If they snap off due to metal fatigue that's not on me, it's because the parts need to be replaced. Only possible way to get the panel operational immediately was to replace guts. I think it was fair to expect payment for doing the additional work.
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Sounds like you should have planned to replace more then just the breaker anyway. If any components experienced overheating, they likely fail in short time after your repair. Never connect a new breaker to bus that has also been overheated, it isn't a question of whether it will fail again it is a question of how soon will it fail again.
 
kwired said:
Sounds like you should have planned to replace more then just the breaker anyway. If any components experienced overheating, they likely fail in short time after your repair. Never connect a new breaker to bus that has also been overheated, it isn't a question of whether it will fail again it is a question of how soon will it fail again.
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Your lucky if things last until you get back with new parts. New parts on bad parts = new bad parts.
 
I recently wrote that I provide no warranty on using any existing or customer supplied parts. With existing, chances are it's already well past its service life if you're having to work on it or near it. with customer supplied parts, I don't give a warranty on cheap, awful, store display, Restore-used, friend gave it to them , etc. parts they may have acquired.

As for the one little thing that ruins a job, it has to be blank cover plates. Yes, those $0.40 pieces of plastic that we all have a million of on the truck, well the last guy I work for never had these. He probably blew 15 hours of labor in 2 months just going to supply houses to get the things. And I shudder to think of the umteen hours I spent going back in crawl spaces and attics to cover that last junction box that he did not have a blank plate for.
 
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JFletcher said:
I recently wrote that I provide no warranty on using any existing or customer supplied parts. With existing, chances are it's already well past its service life if you're having to work on it or near it. with customer supplied parts, I don't give a warranty on cheap, awful, store display, Restore-used, friend gave it to them , etc. parts they may have acquired.

As for the one little thing that ruins a job, it has to be blank cover plates. Yes, those $0.40 pieces of plastic that we all have a million of on the truck, well the last guy I work for never had these. He probably blew 15 hours of labor in 2 months just going to supply houses to get the things. And I shudder to think of the umteen hours I spent going back in crawl spaces and attics to cover that last junction box that he did not have a blank plate for.
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Maybe not necessarily blank plates for me, but still a $1 or less component that you don't have yet absolutely need and need it now - but the closest one is going to kill an hour or two just to get it:blink:

Blank cover at least is usually something you can always come back at a convenient time to install.
 
I often find that buying a main-breaker panel for the guts costs less than buying a replacement main breaker, IF I can find the breaker at all.
 
LarryFine said:
I often find that buying a main-breaker panel for the guts costs less than buying a replacement main breaker, IF I can find the breaker at all.
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You're right about that:

Main breaker was $110 + tax plus an hour round trip to get it at only supply house that carried GE breakers.

Panel for guts was $106 + tax plus fifteen minute drive to Home Depot.

but,

Main breaker replacement was 1 hour job (if successful). (Overheating was not apparent until after old main was removed.)

Guts replacement was 4 hours including a lot of measuring, drilling, tapping to get it placed exactly so deadfront fit. New panel was same width as old, but 6 inches longer. Deadfront had to be trimmed to fit. New deadfront had to be used since main was different configuration (size).
 
Coppersmith said:
Stared at it for a while, nothing changed. Stomped my feet and cursed a lot, scared a dog, still nothing changed.
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I seem to do that on almost every job and it's not working for me either. I may have to re-think that procedure for future jobs.:p
 
Coppersmith said:
Guts replacement was 4 hours including a lot of measuring, drilling, tapping to get it placed exactly so deadfront fit.
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If I'm going to have to go that far I just go all the way and change out the panel to include new breakers. I use Square-D Homeline because the breakers at least look new when installed. That way the customer thinks they got something for their money.
 
Coppersmith said:
Old panel, old screws. The side that snapped was also the failed side of the breaker that had experienced overheating. If they snap off due to metal fatigue that's not on me, it's because the parts need to be replaced. Only possible way to get the panel operational immediately was to replace guts. I think it was fair to expect payment for doing the additional work.
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If you don't have a torque driver, or the values, how do you substantiate the claim that the issue is metal fatigue and not you gorilla-ing the fastener? Not saying that's the case, but how could you prove it?
 
gadfly56 said:
If you don't have a torque driver, or the values, how do you substantiate the claim that the issue is metal fatigue and not you gorilla-ing the fastener? Not saying that's the case, but how could you prove it?
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I broke a screw changing out a range cord the other day. It wasn't when I was tightening it but when I was taking out the old cord. I didn't think I was useing any force at all. Seemed easy to me.

If you put enough forced on a screw driver or nut driver to break a #10 or larger screw you should know about it. The torque value is not to keep you from snapping the screw.
 
Coppersmith said:
Here's another way to look at it: Client had a problem (dead panel) and I suggested the least expensive way to attempt to resolve the problem (replace main breaker). This solution failed due to the age and condition of the panel. I then attempted to resolve the problem in the next least expensive way (guts replacement). This succeeded and saved the client from having to pay for the most expensive way to resolve the problem (full panel change).
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Fair enough. Cheers!
 
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