The amount of energy consumed by mining for gold ...

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drcampbell

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... is obviously very large. "Mining for precious metals is hard work, involving massive machines, huge smelters and harsh chemicals to extract resources like gold and copper."

But as it turns out, gold mining consumes a small fraction of the energy required by Bitcoin mining. In total, "Cryptocurrency mining consumes more energy than Denmark.".

Bitcoin mining uses more energy than mining for real gold
 
A Bitcoin is a number. Specifically a point on an abstract mathematical function. But it is really more abstract because it is associated with an account in a distributed ledger system. There is a format for a text representation but that doesn’t really matter. Calculating updates to the ledger system is computationally costly by design and that’s where the energy is spent. Newer digital currency systems do not have the same power consumption.

Gold mining currently almost exclusively uses solution mining and chemical extraction processes which are capital intensive but ridiculously low power from an energy per pound point of view compared to say steel or especially aluminum. So the comparison is ridiculous.


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IIRC gold mining is the third largest contributor to Mercury releases after concrete and coal. I hate gold, stupid metal. I mean it has some cool properties bit not enough quantity to be worth a damn.
 
IIRC gold mining is the third largest contributor to Mercury releases after concrete and coal. I hate gold, stupid metal. I mean it has some cool properties bit not enough quantity to be worth a damn.

Uhh after recycling cars. The mercury tilt switches in the trunk lids are still significant. Even when scrap yards are paid for removing them they don’t get them all. And concrete say what? Have you ever heard of enviroblend? Concrete is how you get rid of mercury. Also the worst mercury emissions aren’t anywhere in the first or even second worlds. Chinese coal is quite frankly awful. Almost an order of magnitude more sulfur and mercury in it compared to even Virginia high sulfur deposits. Frankly the stuff should be banned but it’s so cheap as an energy source that until we find something else that can make power for under 3 cents per kilowatt-hour you’re not going to realistically get rid of it. Nuclear works at under 1 cent, particularly with breeder reactors like France uses but in the US we haven’t built another plant since 3 mile island.

And your gold info is way out of date. At one time gold was processed using stamp mills followed by mercury amalgamation. Basically gold sticks to mercury. That method fell out of use about a hundred years ago. Today almost all gold mining is solution mining. They pile up the rock (down to 1 gram per ton!) and run drip irrigation. The gold is dissolved with cyanide. Then it is mixed with activated charcoal to strip it off the cyanide which is reused. The gold is hot acid washed off the charcoal that is also recycled before it is electroplated back out. Used to use zinc instead of carbon. Sometimes roasting or autoclaves or various other things are used depending on the gold ore but ultimately mercury has no place in and is not used in the process. That’s for the big ones. There are still tons of small placer operations that use the modern version of a ruffle system but again mercury is no longer used. It contaminates everything and it’s expensive.

For the most part gold is just put in vaults and on fingers. But it is used extensively in the manufacturing of electronics, especially contacts and bond wires. The alternatives when it is used are lousy.




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There is no surer sign of a failed fiat than cryptocurrencies creating valuation out of thin air. Iirc, there's something like 2 dz worldwide, which (and this is the thing) hail to nor are dependent on any particular countries monetary system , backed by banks, gub'mit authority....or anything else in the physical universe.
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~RJ~
 
Uhh after recycling cars. The mercury tilt switches in the trunk lids are still significant. ...
My first reaction to reading that was "Noooo ... Lead was removed from gasoline and paint in the 1970s and mercury is a similar -- if more potent -- heavy-metal toxin; surely its use was discontinued at the same time?"

As it turns out, the car biz continued installing mercury switches until MY2003. Millions of them. (literally!) I was more than a little surprised & disappointed.
https://archive.epa.gov/mercury/archive/web/html/index-4.html

Ford had a curious problem back in the day. (c.1960s, I think) One out of every five cars -- no more, no fewer -- was delivered to the dealership with a dead battery. Identical cars, identical batteries, each coming off the same assembly lines consecutively. Couldn't find anything else wrong with the cars, and they functioned just fine once the batteries were charged. (unless it was the depth of midwinter and they froze)
The one car was laden onto the delivery truck at a sufficiently-steep nose-down angle that the mercury switch turned on the trunk lid during transit. One or two amps, fifty or sixty amp-hours ... Do the Math.
 
Uhh after recycling cars. The mercury tilt switches in the trunk lids are still significant. Even when scrap yards are paid for removing them they don’t get them all. And concrete say what? Have you ever heard of enviroblend? Concrete is how you get rid of mercury. Also the worst mercury emissions aren’t anywhere in the first or even second worlds. Chinese coal is quite frankly awful. Almost an order of magnitude more sulfur and mercury in it compared to even Virginia high sulfur deposits. Frankly the stuff should be banned but it’s so cheap as an energy source that until we find something else that can make power for under 3 cents per kilowatt-hour you’re not going to realistically get rid of it. Nuclear works at under 1 cent, particularly with breeder reactors like France uses but in the US we haven’t built another plant since 3 mile island.

And your gold info is way out of date. At one time gold was processed using stamp mills followed by mercury amalgamation. Basically gold sticks to mercury. That method fell out of use about a hundred years ago. Today almost all gold mining is solution mining. They pile up the rock (down to 1 gram per ton!) and run drip irrigation. The gold is dissolved with cyanide. Then it is mixed with activated charcoal to strip it off the cyanide which is reused. The gold is hot acid washed off the charcoal that is also recycled before it is electroplated back out. Used to use zinc instead of carbon. Sometimes roasting or autoclaves or various other things are used depending on the gold ore but ultimately mercury has no place in and is not used in the process. That’s for the big ones. There are still tons of small placer operations that use the modern version of a ruffle system but again mercury is no longer used. It contaminates everything and it’s expensive.

For the most part gold is just put in vaults and on fingers. But it is used extensively in the manufacturing of electronics, especially contacts and bond wires. The alternatives when it is used are lousy.




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Interesting bit on those auto switches, but I still think my previous post was pretty much correct. Looks like steel production is the 4th largest Mercury contributor, so those Mercury switches themselves have got to be way lower than #4.

Artisinal gold mining is still s major contributor
https://www.epa.gov/international-c...llution-artisanal-and-small-scale-gold-mining

I don't find your comment about enviroblend cement applicable as that appears to be a negligable percentage of the cement production
 
Where's Fulthrotl when you need him?
He can tell you.

a bitcoin is a lifeboat used to transfer value from a leaky, problem ridden
ship, to safe shore.

once safety is reached, the lifeboat is a small, poorly outfitted boat without
much appeal, and will remain so until there is another ship in distress.

some individuals will gather up these insignificant little boats, and wait for
the next iceberg, and sell them at great profit, and then wait for the panicked
people to reach shore, and abandon them yet again.

as for the power needed to mine crypto, the best analogy i've got is a
tractor pull sled at the billy joe bob truck pull. the algorithm was designed
to be harder and harder to solve as time went on. factoring large prime numbers
takes serious crunching.

in 2009, i wasn't working much, and was online. one of the things i was reading
was a thread in alt.cryptography.bitcoin, if i remember the forum name correctly.

there were less than 100 people participating at that point. people were running
the software in the background on their PC's, and getting coins. it was experimental.

the nominal par value of a bitcoin at that point was $1, but as there really wasn't any
money into it at that point, you could buy them, if anyone wanted to, for $.07 each.

$100 would have fetched 1428.5 BTC. which would have peaked at $28,261,514.
untaxed. net.

and i watched it go by, and never gave a second thought to it. what a waste of money.
 
Well, I went a step further than that. Couple of years ago when bit coin was at $400. I bought a couple of Spondoolies bit miners. Never hooked them up. Now if I hooked them up, they would consume more energy than they would generate in revenue.
 
Gold = elemental metal which as a supposedly intrinsic value based on a common social construct of perceived value, which itself is based on people with a desire to adorn themselves and their possessions with a shiny surface that doesn’t tarnish, and the desire for other people to give it to them in exchange for something else. It’s all still a social construct.

Bitcoin = vaporware that is a social construct of perceived value based on the creation of computational code to be used in verification of the transfer of other wealth instruments (usually based upon gold), which is itself based on tech savvy people agreeing on said value.

Bank burns down, social infrastructure collapses, gold is still there. Computer burns up or dies with your Bitcoin or other cryptocurrency ID number, or social infrastructure collapses, it is gone. Hmmmm....
 
I think I said this once before a while back when this topic came up, but as a sociology/anthropology/psychology thought experiment, I am fascinated by what kind of zombie apocalypse it would take for gold to have 0 value.
"Will you take these 50 gold bars for that bullet and can of tuna?"
"No, sorry bro...."
 
Where I live in Eastern Washington has the cheapest electrical rates in the United States. The local PUDS have placed moratoriums on new cryptocurrency accounts. They are establishing new rates that are about double that of existing industrial customers.
 
Where I live in Eastern Washington has the cheapest electrical rates in the United States. The local PUDS have placed moratoriums on new cryptocurrency accounts. They are establishing new rates that are about double that of existing industrial customers.
Heh, the Mighty Columbia rolls on to generate fake wealth...
 
Interesting bit on those auto switches, but I still think my previous post was pretty much correct. Looks like steel production is the 4th largest Mercury contributor, so those Mercury switches themselves have got to be way lower than #4.

Artisinal gold mining is still s major contributor
https://www.epa.gov/international-c...llution-artisanal-and-small-scale-gold-mining

I don't find your comment about enviroblend cement applicable as that appears to be a negligable percentage of the cement production

When you burn coal or coke there is a tiny (parts per million) amount in it. Coal is basically an ancient swamp that got buried and compressed over millions of years. Fresh water gets you coal, sea water gets you oil. There is a theory about a certain microbe later developed which consumes dead plants and drastically reduced coal and oil production compared to today but it still goes on. Either way swamps are chock full of essentially huge quantities of muck aka filter media and decayed plants aka activated carbon. They are huge environmental sink holes that form nature’s own sewage treatment plants. Sewage plants by the way are basically just manmade swamps and use the same processes. So it should be no surprise that coal is loaded with so many heavy metals that without flue gas treatment, they put out more radiation per kilowatt than nuclear plants.

Either way I have a degree in metallurgy and mineral processing so I know a lot about this stuff. The oldest and actually the first cast iron pipe plant in the US was located in Florence, NJ. I was the last engineer there until it closed 10 years ago, mostly due to the pre-Christie/Obama business climate. NJ had just passed their own mercury regulation set at 10 times tighter than EPA at a level so low that no soil in the US can pass. In other words if you make a garden in your back yard, it’s an environmental waste site. Mercury is one of the things Congress set the limit at “no measurable amount”. At one time this would be around 0.1% but as measurement technology has improved we are now at parts per billion. The law needs to change. There is no measurable health hazard when we are lower than the general environment.

Anyways back to the story. The foundry used cupola technology. The fuel is coke. About 25-35% of the output was from mercury tilt switches. It was a wet scrubber system for the most part. We used limestone (which converted to lime in the coke fire) which helps but not enough. Schloss the last remaining coke plant in the US closed so now Coke is mostly imported from China last I knew. Their coke is horrible especially in terms of emissions. At the time before they just gave up on doing business in New Jersey the plan was to mix enviroblend with the flue gas to remove mercury. Same technology is already used in trash to steam plants. The business moved along with the baghouse tp
Virginia.

Now enviroblend is kind of a secret recipe but I’ll give you a hint. When you make concrete a huge amount of the limestone never mind coal, silica, and feldspar is burned away. About 25% of what comes out of a cement kiln is dust with about half lime and Portland cement. Getting rid of kiln dust is a major problem for cement and lime kilns. Enter Enviroblend which is pretty much packaged lime and cement kiln dust. Now the test for heavy metals is to leach a sample with acid, filter and collect the liquid, and analyze it for metals usually in an ICP because it’s fast. The caustics from the lime and cement dust shoot the pH to 11. So are we actually capturing heavy metals or just buffering and neutralizing the acid in the test? Not being cynical here just pointing out the obvious.

Second hint I was the kiln engineer for the second biggest lime plant in the US too.

Lime and cement kilns burn coal outright instead of coke. There is tons of very reactive caustics everywhere and multiple heat and dust recycling loops never mind massive bag houses and multiple cyclones to contain and handle dust. Mercury boils at over 600 degrees while kiln off gassed in a straight lime kiln are at 600 while most modern designs run 250-400
at MOST. Almost everything gets captured.

It’s a similar story for iron and steel. In fact you need about 350-400 lbs. of lime to make a ton of steel and that’s just for the slag. Even more is needed in the baghouses for desulfurization on top of all the coke that is essentially just huge chunks of activated charcoal. Again heat recuperation and dust recovery are the rule not the exception.

So why do steel mills and cement kilns get to the top of the EPAs list when in realiry as I sort of explained iron foundries should be the worst by far? It is the moronic way EPA calculates emissions. First off they do not look at emissions AFTER environmental controls. The assumption is that if it wasn’t for them we’d just run open stacks. It’s hilarious because if you get just one snoot full of the carbon monoxide laden gas off the top of a cupola for instance (50% CO/50% CO2, 0% O2) you will die.

But then EPA gets just plain stupid. They leave out the concentrations in their calculations. Say I have a pile of 1000 TONS of dirt. We will make that metric tons because the math is easier. Say I accidentally break one small drug store thermometer accidentally and it soaks into my dirt pile. Say the mercury weighs 1 gram. When I do the EPA paperwork I have to report it as 1000 TONS of mercury contaminated dirt as my spill. The amount is one part per million so it is measurable and thus reportable. EPA then goes on to drop the concentration part and I’m credited with 1000 tons of mercury waste.

They do this with water, solids, and air. So it’s pretty easy to claim that XYZ industry has huge amounts of emissions that “must” be regulated because they conveniently drop the part about concentration.

So sorry. My experience with gold is all modern plants like Newmont. I know about mercury amalgamation because we learned about it in college as the history of gold mining but that was a century ago. Hardly any of that gold makes it into industrial use. Again sounds like typical and utterly false EPA math there. The largest gold producer in the world is Newmont. You can find and read their environmental emissions records very easily. If you don’t want to dig just email the stock holder relations office and ask, Their mercury emissions is nowhere close to what EPA claims, I already explained how they fraudulently inflate the numbers. Who do we believe, a company that can be sued out of existence or have their corporate officers jailed for putting out false information, or a federal agency that clearly and blatantly produces fraudulently inflated data for political purposes?


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So sorry. My experience with gold is all modern plants like Newmont. I know about mercury amalgamation because we learned about it in college as the history of gold mining but that was a century ago. Hardly any of that gold makes it into industrial use. Again sounds like typical and utterly false EPA math there. The largest gold producer in the world is Newmont. You can find and read their environmental emissions records very easily. If you don’t want to dig just email the stock holder relations office and ask, Their mercury emissions is nowhere close to what EPA claims, I already explained how they fraudulently inflate the numbers. Who do we believe, a company that can be sued out of existence or have their corporate officers jailed for putting out false information, or a federal agency that clearly and blatantly produces fraudulently inflated data for political purposes ?

Ok you are going there, Im out....
 
Gold = elemental metal which as a supposedly intrinsic value based on a common social construct of perceived value, which itself is based on people with a desire to adorn themselves and their possessions with a shiny surface that doesn’t tarnish, and the desire for other people to give it to them in exchange for something else. It’s all still a social construct.

Bitcoin = vaporware that is a social construct of perceived value based on the creation of computational code to be used in verification of the transfer of other wealth instruments (usually based upon gold), which is itself based on tech savvy people agreeing on said value.

Bank burns down, social infrastructure collapses, gold is still there. Computer burns up or dies with your Bitcoin or other cryptocurrency ID number, or social infrastructure collapses, it is gone. Hmmmm....

I think I said this once before a while back when this topic came up, but as a sociology/anthropology/psychology thought experiment, I am fascinated by what kind of zombie apocalypse it would take for gold to have 0 value.
"Will you take these 50 gold bars for that bullet and can of tuna?"
"No, sorry bro...."

both agreeable posts:thumbsup:

i'd only add chicken ,pig or goat (as the case may be) is far easier digested than any rare earth.....:lol:~RJ~
 
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