The most commonly ignored code rule

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SEO said:
Inspectors don't overlook section 90.4. :smile:
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I'm just trying to say that my regional experience has been that very few electrical inspections are actually conducted in comparison to the number of inspections that are required by the laws establishing inspections. In other words, a small percentage of area contractors/installers actually pull permits for the work they do. Been this way forever.
 
wbalsam1 said:
I'm just trying to say that my regional experience has been that very few electrical inspections are actually conducted in comparison to the number of inspections that are required by the laws establishing inspections. In other words, a small percentage of area contractors/installers actually pull permits for the work they do. Been this way forever.
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I agree I mentioned that in previous posts . I misunderstood your intent. I was poking a little fun at inspectors. I am an inspector and have seen inspectors wearing caps with 90.4 on them some in fun and others ?:smile:
 
tonyou812 said:
I thought Tilamook cheese was from Ireland? Am I really the only one who comes across wires that are only held together with the wire nut????? How many times have you pulled off a nut to find straight wires ? And do you really think this is a good connection? Doesnt anyone use common sense anymore? I think the wire nut people just want their product to seem more user friendly than the other guy.
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I've pulled switches and receptacles out and had the wire nut pop off, with the wires just hanging there, completely separated from each other. Of course, they were fed with two black wires and a bare ground. And, there was nothing but pigtails coming from the feeders. Pigtails, to the switch, to another switch, to another...oh yeah, the bare grounds, those were just wound around one feeder bare ground and stuffed in the back of the box.
On another note, has anyone else ever had a can light metal can (where the lamp goes) become energized?
 
brantmacga said:
i do mostly residential service & pools; the most common I see are single 15A receps on 20A circuit ...

This isn't a code violation, assuming more than one recep on the circuit. Check 210.21(B)(3) and T210.21(B)(3). Only for a dedicated receptacle on a 20A circuit do you have to use a 20A recep.

Or is that what you mean by "single recep"...a dedicated circuit with only one recep...? I was reading "single recep" to mean one recep on yoke as opposed to a duplex with two.

nevermind. : )
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Jim W in Tampa said:
Not reidentifying white wires when used as ungrounded.
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Or better yet, 200.7(C)(2) where they do reidentify the white, but use it as traveler in a 3-way or as switched in a switch-loop. Seems like around here any house wired before 1970 and any journeyman who got his card before Jimmy Carter was in the white house uses Red and White as travelers.
 
JHMaynard said:
Or better yet, 200.7(C)(2) where they do reidentify the white, but use it as traveler in a 3-way or as switched in a switch-loop. Seems like around here any house wired before 1970 and any journeyman who got his card before Jimmy Carter was in the white house uses Red and White as travelers.
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We have a number of contractors that run 14-2 thru the ceiling and hit all of their lights. . 3way switches are all 14-3 dead ends that are both supplied from the light. . One of the 3ways will have a hot and 2 travelers but the other one has 2 travelers and a switchleg. . What would you use the white wire for with 2 travelers and a switchleg ?
 
wirebender said:
dnem said:
What would you use the white wire for with 2 travelers and a switchleg ?
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I use it for the hot.
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Both 3ways are switch legs supplied by 14-3 Romexs from the light. . Only one 3way has an unswitched hot.
The other 3way has 2 travelers and a switchleg. . All 3 of those wires are switched hots.
Which one of them uses the retagged white wire ?
 
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Quote:
We have a number of contractors that run 14-2 thru the ceiling and hit all of their lights. . 3way switches are all 14-3 dead ends that are both supplied from the light. . One of the 3ways will have a hot and 2 travelers but the other one has 2 travelers and a switchleg. . What would you use the white wire for with 2 travelers and a switchleg ?

My reply:

According to 200.7(C)(2) this is an illegal installation with multiconductor cable. Its a fine scheme in conduit where you can choose what colors you use.

A dead end 3-way wired with multiconductor cable (NMB or MC etc) must have the hot for its common, which is legal to be a reidentified white. This is the same reason you cannot run both the hot and the switched leg to the 4-way location box in a 3-way/4-way switching scheme. You can make it work, sure... send the hot down one three-wire's white toward a dead end and send the switched hot down the other end. It will work, but won't be code compliant.

Here is another fun example of a 3-way that will work, but isn't legal. Here in Oregon we call it a California 3-way. ;) ;) ;) ;) Wink Wink Nudge Nudge

Take two switch boxes and a light box-- run a two-wire with hot and neut to each switch location. Take the power from the same circuit (Or, at least the same phase, since this aint legal anyways) to each switch box. Now run a two wire from each box to the light. (Single strand of THHN works just as well.. hell maybe even cat5e) Put the power's hot and neutral on the traveler screws on each 3-way switch, and use any conductor you like on the two-wire from the switches' commons to the light. Cap off or cut chort the unused conductors, and certainly no need to worry about that silly equipment ground. Land the wire from each common on the light's hot and neutral... one on each. Don't bother with wire nuts, tape is fine.


What you get is a system whereby either switch location being toggled changes the state of the light--from off to on or on to off--. You either have two neutrals at the light:OFF ; two hots at the light:OFF ; or one of each: ON.

I certainly don't recommend doing this, but recognising it sure helps in repairing the system to safe, legal, and working when you find it.

To be fair I haven't ever seen this in California, but plenty of times here in Oregon, mostly on K+T houses that were poorly remodeled with BX or early fish-scale romex.



Jack
 
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JHMaynard said:
Quote:
We have a number of contractors that run 14-2 thru the ceiling and hit all of their lights. . 3way switches are all 14-3 dead ends that are both supplied from the light. . One of the 3ways will have a hot and 2 travelers but the other one has 2 travelers and a switchleg. . What would you use the white wire for with 2 travelers and a switchleg ?

My reply:
According to 200.7(C)(2) this is an illegal installation with multiconductor cable. Its a fine scheme in conduit where you can choose what colors you use.
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My understanding is that this is a compliant installation under 200.7(C)(1). As far as I can see, 200.7(C)(2) is obsolete, since the permission it provides is a subset of the permission provided by 200.7(C)(1).

JHMaynard said:
A dead end 3-way wired with multiconductor cable (NMB or MC etc) must have the hot for its common, which is legal to be a reidentified white. This is the same reason you cannot run both the hot and the switched leg to the 4-way location box in a 3-way/4-way switching scheme. You can make it work, sure... send the hot down one three-wire's white toward a dead end and send the switched hot down the other end. It will work, but won't be code compliant.
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I can't quite picture what you are saying, but if you are suggesting a 300.3(B) violation, I believe that any such configuration you want would be allowed under 300.3(B)(3). That's not to say I'd do it, and it could generate unwanted EMI.

Cheers, Wayne
 
dnem said:
Both 3ways are switch legs supplied by 14-3 Romexs from the light. . Only one 3way has an unswitched hot.
The other 3way has 2 travelers and a switchleg. . All 3 of those wires are switched hots.
Which one of them uses the retagged white wire ?
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It would have to be for a traveler since code prohibits using it for a return conductor from switch to light. 200.7(C)(2) 2005
 
JHMaynard said:
dnem said:
We have a number of contractors that run 14-2 thru the ceiling and hit all of their lights. . 3way switches are all 14-3 dead ends that are both supplied from the light. . One of the 3ways will have a hot and 2 travelers but the other one has 2 travelers and a switchleg. . What would you use the white wire for with 2 travelers and a switchleg ?
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My reply:

According to 200.7(C)(2) this is an illegal installation with multiconductor cable. .....
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I disagree. . It's not a matter of switched or unswitched. . It's a matter of line or load.

Which one of the following 2 is the real wording out of the NEC ?

Option #1
200.7(C)
(2) Where a cable assembly contains an insulated conductor for single-pole, 3-way, or 4-way switch loops and the conductor with white or gray insulation or a marking of three continuous white stripes is used for the unswitched conductor to the switch but not as a switched return conductor from the switch to the switched outlet.

Option #2
200.7(C)
(2) Where a cable assembly contains an insulated conductor for single-pole, 3-way, or 4-way switch loops and the conductor with white or gray insulation or a marking of three continuous white stripes is used for the supply to the switch but not as a return conductor from the switch to the switched outlet.
 
wwhitney said:
As far as I can see, 200.7(C)(2) is obsolete, since the permission it provides is a subset of the permission provided by 200.7(C)(1).
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IMSO 200.7(C)(2) is there to prohibit the use of a re-identified wire as the return conductor to the switched outlet since this is not prohibited by (C)(1).
 
wwhitney said:
My understanding is that this is a compliant installation under 200.7(C)(1). As far as I can see, 200.7(C)(2) is obsolete, since the permission it provides is a subset of the permission provided by 200.7(C)(1).
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That's not how the NEC works unless it says "..... 50 volts or more shall be permitted only as in (1), (2), or (3)". . Without that word "or", you must comply with all of the conditions listed that apply to your installation.
 
Travelers are not "return conductor from the switch to the switched outlet".

Outlet. A point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment.
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Article 100

Current is not taken from the travelers to supply utilization equipment.
 
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