The nerve of this guy.

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satcom

Senior Member
I would agree but I don't know what can be really done about it. Many contractors of course do not abide but when you have a complaint that is when they get you. The Laws in CA for contracting are so onesided it's pitiful.

It ia very simple, if it,s one sided, do you guys get together have a state assn. lobby on your behalf, if not then the state will mess with you every chance they get, there is strenth in unity.
 
Licensing is a sham!! Think about it. We all are licensed, bonded and insured. We bring a lot to the table. (experience, tools, knowledge you name it) We go through a lot of red tape and it makes no freakin sense that a homeownwer can do their work or a GC. Do you think I can build a house let a lone an addition. I haven't a clue on what it takes to calcualte load bearing walls, headers, rafters etc. Huge liability too. House can fall down. Now...I see the mistakes homeowners make that are put their house and person at risk. It's B.S. I hate the weekend warrior and all these shows on TV that trivialize the trade. I find humor in their mistakes and the money they lose in going over budget and not doing stuff in the alotted time. If it were up to me....electric,plumbing etc would be deleted from home improvement stores and only made available to pros. Imagine how you comp would grow from this change. Keep dreaming though. Having a license is all that it's cracked up to be if my neighbor and any puts can have at it!!!!!!
 
CA is so ass backward

CA is so ass backward

I haven't done any residential projects in years, so I'm not sure, but I think this is still in effect. If a B License Holder (General Contractor) goes into Building and Safety to pull permits on residential, all he has to do is sign an affdavit that he is doing more than 2 trades (not including rough carpentry or finish carpentry) and he can pull all the permits (elec., plumbing, A/C, etc.) and get all the inspections, without hiring any specialty subs. And most cities have "combi" inspectors that look at all trades' work at each phase of work (UG, slab, rough, final).

But CA is going thru 10 years of "certifying" electricians. We are the first trade to be required to be certified. Back in 99 they said electriciain were the first (due the dangers possible if work was not up to code), then the plumbers and HVAC trades would be next. 10 years later and the state is barely up and running on making elec. certification a reality, with enforcement.

Yet there are no safeguards for the consumer who is "serviced" in a scenario like the OP laid out.

And the "they get what they deserve" opinion doesn't keep the kids from getting electrocuted in their own home/pool.

I don't know how you can ignore the big picture like this.
 

goldstar

Senior Member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
Licensing is a sham!!
I don't agree.
Think about it. We all are licensed, bonded and insured. We bring a lot to the table. (experience, tools, knowledge you name it)
Licenses and business permits are issued so that we that are licensed can contract business with the public.
We go through a lot of red tape and it makes no freakin sense that a homeownwer can do their work or a GC.
I do feel your pain. I'm not sure how things work where you are but here in NJ a GC is not permitted to do any electrical work. That doesn't mean it's not done. But, if they are caught and found guilty the fine is $1000.00 for the first offense. In addition, commercial building owners are not permitted to do work in their own commercial buildings. There era exceptions in industrial settings where maintenance personnel do work inside the building but generally not new construction.
Do you think I can build a house let a lone an addition. I haven't a clue on what it takes to calcualte load bearing walls, headers, rafters etc. Huge liability too. House can fall down. Now...I see the mistakes homeowners make that are put their house and person at risk. It's B.S.
You obviously know your limits but most HO's do not.
If it were up to me....electric,plumbing etc would be deleted from home improvement stores and only made available to pros.
I truly want to agree with you on this but with a slight change. I think HI stores should be able to sell replacement parts like receptacles, switches and circuit breakers to HO's but not breaker panels or service materials.

Having said that, once you start to restrict what HO's are able to purchase you now border on the possibility of a restraint of trade. I think this can only be controlled by local inspectors who should question what is going on when they see dumpsters and work vans outside a house and no permit in the window.
 

macmikeman

Senior Member
So here is the problem as I see it. The tv shows serve a purpose. They teach the general public what we are already aware of. This: I can train a monkey in three weeks how to wire a house. No lie. I cannot however teach a monkey in 4 years how to understand codes or proper wiring theory ( unless said monkey is named George and lives in Colorado,, in which case he was teaching me way before the 4 years was up:). There is much much more to wiring than those shows allow the public to understand or see. They think it is all so simple and we are just overpaid stuck up wannabee's. They need to send the show people into the primary substation vaults at the airport and let them loose in there for a spell. Then they could show us what experts they are after all...
 

hurk27

Senior Member
Licensing is a sham!! Think about it. We all are licensed, bonded and insured. We bring a lot to the table. (experience, tools, knowledge you name it) We go through a lot of red tape and it makes no freakin sense that a homeownwer can do their work or a GC. Do you think I can build a house let a lone an addition. I haven't a clue on what it takes to calcualte load bearing walls, headers, rafters etc. Huge liability too. House can fall down. Now...I see the mistakes homeowners make that are put their house and person at risk. It's B.S. I hate the weekend warrior and all these shows on TV that trivialize the trade. I find humor in their mistakes and the money they lose in going over budget and not doing stuff in the alotted time. If it were up to me....electric,plumbing etc would be deleted from home improvement stores and only made available to pros. Imagine how you comp would grow from this change. Keep dreaming though. Having a license is all that it's cracked up to be if my neighbor and any puts can have at it!!!!!!

I can see your frustration, but lets look at it from a different view.

would you like to see us all put in a padded room for the rest of our lives?

I kind of like being able to change my oil, tune my car up, change my own brakes, build a nice hot rod.

there are people who love to jump out of a perfectly good plane, and hope there chute opens.

there are people who love to drive cars around in a circle and crash and bang up.

I guess what I'm getting at is we live in a free country, if a home owner wishes to live on the dangerous side, they should be allowed.

yes I cringe when I see these jobs, and deal with them on case by case bases. but I also realize we live in a free country, and I hope it remains free to all who comes after me.

I hope the Log Cabin Laws last for ever.

But this is my opinion. and I will stand by it.
 

jxofaltrds

Senior Member
Location
Mike P. Columbus Ohio
Occupation
ESI
In Ohio.

1. Any homeowner can do their own electric on their personal residence.
2. Anyone can do residential electric. See below #4.
3. The state license is a commercial license.
4. Local cities, etc. can require a state license to do residential work if they are a certified department. This is a registration not a license.
5. All work must be performed to The 2008 NEC. Even if there are no inspections in that area.
 

iMuse97

Senior Member
Location
Chicagoland
I can see your frustration, but lets look at it from a different view.

would you like to see us all put in a padded room for the rest of our lives?

I kind of like being able to change my oil, tune my car up, change my own brakes, build a nice hot rod.

there are people who love to jump out of a perfectly good plane, and hope there chute opens.

there are people who love to drive cars around in a circle and crash and bang up.

I guess what I'm getting at is we live in a free country, if a home owner wishes to live on the dangerous side, they should be allowed.

yes I cringe when I see these jobs, and deal with them on case by case bases. but I also realize we live in a free country, and I hope it remains free to all who comes after me.

I hope the Log Cabin Laws last for ever.

But this is my opinion. and I will stand by it.

Long live the freedom to break your own neck jumping from a plane or flying the ultralight, or whatever...!!!

For the trade, local inspection is the key to this, and since it is local, it will always be enforced with varying degrees of thoroughness.

We who are in the trade need to achieve the highest standards for ourselves and support and promote inspectors and

local electrical departments (or state laws) which provide for the same, like the Ohio standard mentioned above.
 

cowboyjwc

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Simi Valley, CA
Licensing is a sham!! Think about it. We all are licensed, bonded and insured. We bring a lot to the table. (experience, tools, knowledge you name it) We go through a lot of red tape and it makes no freakin sense that a homeownwer can do their work or a GC. Do you think I can build a house let a lone an addition. I haven't a clue on what it takes to calcualte load bearing walls, headers, rafters etc. Huge liability too. House can fall down. Now...I see the mistakes homeowners make that are put their house and person at risk. It's B.S. I hate the weekend warrior and all these shows on TV that trivialize the trade. I find humor in their mistakes and the money they lose in going over budget and not doing stuff in the alotted time. If it were up to me....electric,plumbing etc would be deleted from home improvement stores and only made available to pros. Imagine how you comp would grow from this change. Keep dreaming though. Having a license is all that it's cracked up to be if my neighbor and any puts can have at it!!!!!!

This argument comes up every so often, but I agree with some of the others, stay out of my house. I spent Sunday snaking out drains and replacing faucets, don't you imagine that there is some plumbers forum out there that's bad mouthing DIYers. Why did I do it? Because I can and I don't need to give some guy in dirty blue pants and a name on his shirt $500 to do it for me.
 

RH1

Member
I haven't done any residential projects in years, so I'm not sure, but I think this is still in effect. If a B License Holder (General Contractor) goes into Building and Safety to pull permits on residential, all he has to do is sign an affdavit that he is doing more than 2 trades (not including rough carpentry or finish carpentry) and he can pull all the permits (elec., plumbing, A/C, etc.) and get all the inspections, without hiring any specialty subs. And most cities have "combi" inspectors that look at all trades' work at each phase of work (UG, slab, rough, final).

But CA is going thru 10 years of "certifying" electricians. We are the first trade to be required to be certified. Back in 99 they said electriciain were the first (due the dangers possible if work was not up to code), then the plumbers and HVAC trades would be next. 10 years later and the state is barely up and running on making elec. certification a reality, with enforcement.

Yet there are no safeguards for the consumer who is "serviced" in a scenario like the OP laid out.

And the "they get what they deserve" opinion doesn't keep the kids from getting electrocuted in their own home/pool.

I don't know how you can ignore the big picture like this.

Wow. You are obviously well informed on what goes on here in California! I thought I was all alone in my disgust of the CSLB and California construction. Here are my complaints:

1. WTF is this $500 license exemption? No license needed if the job is under $500. This is why there are 1.2 million unlicensed contractors in California and 330,000 licensed.

2. GCs can do electrical wiring if they paint and patch afterwords. (the 2 additional trades exemption) I see GCs advertising electrical work every day.

3. The law requiring unlicensed contractors to declare their unlicensed status in all advertising was rescinded in 2005. How does this serve the public good?

4. I dare anybody to call the CSLB and speak to a real person, it's impossible. Ever try to report unlicensed activity? They need the unlicensed contractor's name, address and phone number or they will reject the complaint form. How to you get that info? "Hey amigo, un momento por favor, I'm reporting you to the CSLB, como se llama usted?"

5. Certifying electricians? This is the weirdest law ever. The law says "any person performing electrical work and in the employ of an electrical (c-10) contractor must be certified". Yet anybody doing electrical work for a GC or a school or hospital need not be certified. Also, there is no penalty for violating this law, and it seems that the obligation to comply is not with the EC, but with the electrician. Anyway, to become certified you pay $175 and take a VERY easy, OPEN book code test that is pretty much chapter 3 of the NEC. Then your name, address and phone number is put on a list and distributed to the IBEW so they can get intel on non union shops. This is a scam from top to bottom.

6. Certified Electricians, Part 2. Now that thousands of electricians are "State Certified", they are advertising on Craigslist, Google Adwords, etc and now are in direct competition with "Licensed Contractors". It was bad enough when we had to compete against unlicensed contractors but now, thanks to the State Of California, we now have to compete against "State Certified" electricians. The public sees ads for "State Certified" electricians and assumes they are licensed contractors. These "State Certified" electricians do jobs in excess of the arbitrary "$500 no-license" limit but since they do not use written contracts and are typically paid in cash, they fly under the radar.

It's gotten to the point that having an electrical contractors license is no longer a requirement to run an electrical business in California.
 
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bradleyelectric

Senior Member
Location
forest hill, md
And the "they get what they deserve" opinion doesn't keep the kids from getting electrocuted in their own home/pool.

I don't know how you can ignore the big picture like this.

As an interesting test. Try to find information on deaths in residential swimming pools caused by electrocutions and get back to me with that. I've tried and can't find any significant numbers on it.
 

hbiss

EC, Westchester, New York NEC: 2014
Location
Hawthorne, New York NEC: 2014
Occupation
EC
I can see your frustration, but lets look at it from a different view.

would you like to see us all put in a padded room for the rest of our lives?

I kind of like being able to change my oil, tune my car up, change my own brakes, build a nice hot rod.

there are people who love to jump out of a perfectly good plane, and hope there chute opens.

there are people who love to drive cars around in a circle and crash and bang up.

I guess what I'm getting at is we live in a free country, if a home owner wishes to live on the dangerous side, they should be allowed.

yes I cringe when I see these jobs, and deal with them on case by case bases. but I also realize we live in a free country, and I hope it remains free to all who comes after me.

I hope the Log Cabin Laws last for ever.

But this is my opinion. and I will stand by it.

I can agree with your points about doing your own wrench work, jumping out of a plane and the rest. I can't agree that doing your own electrical work on your own house fits those situations. In those other instances you endanger only yourself. Wire your house and you not only put yourself in danger but also your family and anybody else who lives with you. Also consider that at some point that house can be sold (if it doesn't burn down first) to an unsuspecting new owner with a family. So this kind of activity can put many people in danger.

-Hal
 

Cold Fusion

Senior Member
Location
way north
I can agree with your points about doing your own wrench work, jumping out of a plane and the rest. I can't agree that doing your own electrical work on your own house fits those situations. In those other instances you endanger only yourself. Wire your house and you not only put yourself in danger but also your family and anybody else who lives with you. ...
Hal -
Here is a little different perspective. If this wrench work is on the car brakes and steering, is this any more safe to others? Consider the car on the freeway at 70 mph. I'm not seeing much difference. Especially when that 3000 lb car at 70mph has about 0.5 million ft-lbs of energy - that's equivalent to five hundred .44 mag bullets.

Hummm. Wire in a new patio light? Fix my brakes, then load up the kids drive over to the next town on the freeway to see Grandma?

Which is potentially more dangerous?

cf
(somebody want to check my math - make sure I didn't slip a decimal point)
 

hbiss

EC, Westchester, New York NEC: 2014
Location
Hawthorne, New York NEC: 2014
Occupation
EC
Yeah, I know what you are saying. An idiot is an idiot but I tend to believe that problems with a DIY brake job are going to show up and even an idiot is going to realize there is something wrong. Contrast that to electrical work that may not show any problems to an amateur, then something happens, maybe even years later. It's like planting a time bomb.

-Hal
 

mivey

Senior Member
Hal -
Here is a little different perspective. If this wrench work is on the car brakes and steering, is this any more safe to others? Consider the car on the freeway at 70 mph. I'm not seeing much difference. Especially when that 3000 lb car at 70mph has about 0.5 million ft-lbs of energy - that's equivalent to five hundred .44 mag bullets.

Hummm. Wire in a new patio light? Fix my brakes, then load up the kids drive over to the next town on the freeway to see Grandma?

Which is potentially more dangerous?

cf
(somebody want to check my math - make sure I didn't slip a decimal point)
I get 491,410.542846_ft*lbf. Not sure about the 0.44 mag
 
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