The odd pool question or two

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George Stolz

George Stolz

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Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
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Hospital Master Electrician
Two questions I promised to ask (I have an opinion, need input):

1.) You have a clubhouse in an apartment complex with a hot tub and a pool. There is a panel in an electrical room in the clubhouse, a panel marked "Pool" and two runs to be installed - one for the pool equipment, and one for the hot tub.

Can the hot tub at the clubhouse be wired in NM?
Can the pool disconnect be wired in NM?

2.) You have a patio outside the insulated walls of the clubhouse, with a concrete pad. The patio roof is a part of the clubhouse roof. The customer would like a paddle fan installed above the hot tub. There is a roof over the patio, a full back wall and the side wall is about half the depth of the patio, so 2.5 sides of the patio are open.

Is the patio outside?
How high must the paddle fan be installed over the water of the hot tub?
Is GFCI protection relevant in the determination of the height of the paddle fan?

I know this might sound goofy, all answers appreciated. :)
 
George Stolz said:
Can the hot tub at the clubhouse be wired in NM?
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Outdoor hot tub, No NM. . Need insulated equipment ground when not interior of one-family dwelling [680.42(C)].

Indoor hot tub, also No NM. . Need insulated equipment ground when not interior of one-family dwelling [680.43 + 680.21(A)(4)].

George Stolz said:
Can the pool disconnect be wired in NM?
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No NM, even if the disconnect is on the wall of the building, it's not a one-family dwelling [680.21(A)(4)] so you need an insulated equipment ground [680.21(A)(1)].

George Stolz said:
Is the patio outside?
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Even if there was missing only one wall or even a part of one wall, you're outside. . You might be "protected from the weather" [406.8(A)] but you're still outside.

George Stolz said:
How high must the paddle fan be installed over the water of the hot tub?
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12 feet above water level [680.42 + 680.22(C)(1)]

George Stolz said:
Is GFCI protection relevant in the determination of the height of the paddle fan?
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Above the hot tub, No, it's not indoors. . Indoors has lesser clearances for GFCI [680.22(C)(2)], outdoors does not [680.22(C)(1)].

If you can slide the fan over so that it's at least 5 feet away from the hot tub instead of above the hot tub, then GFCI could allow you to cut your clearance to 5 feet above water line [680.22(C)(4)].

George Stolz said:
Two questions I promised to ask
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That was actually 5 questions, but who's counting ?
 
I think the key here is that it is an apartment complex not a one family dwelling , as mentioned by David. All the exceptions for the dwelling go away in this case.
 
Dennis Alwon said:
I think the key here is that it is an apartment complex not a one family dwelling , as mentioned by David. All the exceptions for the dwelling go away in this case.
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I agree, but IF George's example was about a single family dwelling, than the Hut Tub could be installed with Romex.


680.42 Outdoor Installations
(C) Interior Wiring to Outdoor Installations. In the interior of a one-family dwelling or in the interior of another building or structure associated with a one-family dwelling, any of the wiring methods recognized in Chapter 3 of this Code that contain a copper equipment grounding conductor that is insulated or enclosed within the outer sheath of the wiring method and not smaller than 12 AWG shall be permitted to be used for the connection to motor, heating, and control loads that are part of a self-contained spa or hot tub or a packaged spa or hot tub equipment assembly. Wiring to an underwater luminaire shall comply with 680.23 or 680.33.
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dnem said:
That was actually 5 questions, but who's counting ?
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Yeah, and he didn't even ask the question he really wanted to ask, which was "what would motivate someone to think that an apartment complex clubhouse is a single-family dwelling?"

That one's not nearly as simple to answer as the others. It could go back as far as the potty-training developmental stage, for all we know. :)
 
I agree with David. However, if I am not in charge, my opinion is just that. The foreman on the job graciously granted me permission to ask this on the forum, and get more opinions. I very appreciate the input very much. :cool:
 
However, I do have a followup: How close can an outdoor GFCI receptacle be placed to the outdoor hot tub?

(P. S. Your replies have positively contributed to the outcome of the installation. :cool: )
 
George Stolz said:
However, I do have a followup: How close can an outdoor GFCI receptacle be placed to the outdoor hot tub?
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680.42 outdoor hot tub is same as pool.

'05
motor plug at 10 feet min for non-twist lock, 5 feet min for twist lock [680.22(A)(1)]
general purpose plug 10 feet min [680.22(A)(2)], 20 feet max for a dwelling [680.22(A)(3)]
general purpose with restricted lot space of a dwelling [single fam not specified], 5 feet min [680.22(A)(4)]

'08
motor plug at 10 feet min for non-twist lock, 6 feet min for twist lock [680.22(A)(1)]
GFCI required for hardwired pool motors [680.22(B)]
general purpose plug 6 feet min [680.22(A)(2)], 20 feet max for a dwelling [680.22(A)(3)]
 
2008 NEC 680.42 Outdoor installations must comply with parts I and II of Article 680. Part II 680.22 (A) (2) Other receptacles shall be not less than 6 ft from the inside wall.
 
jamesoftn said:
2008 NEC 680.42 Outdoor installations must comply with parts I and II of Article 680. Part II 680.22 (A) (2) Other receptacles shall be not less than 6 ft from the inside wall.
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I haven't even seen a 2008 yet.:grin:

And George said that it was a 2005 install.
 
cowboyjwc said:
That is only for dwelling units. One is not required for a commercial pool, but if you install one it must be a minimum of 10' from the inside wall of the pool. 680.22(A)(2)
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I don't agree.

From the 05

680.22 (A) (3)

Where a permanently installed pool is installed at a dwelling unit(s), no fewer than one......(receptacle)........
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George said it was an apartment complex.

Dwelling, Multifamily. A building that contains three or more dwelling units
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frizbeedog said:
I don't agree.

From the 05

680.22 (A) (3)



George said it was an apartment complex.
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While the apartments may be considered dwelling units, the pool, per the building code, is considered a public pool, the same as a park pool or a pool at the YMCA.
 
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