The odd pool question or two

[dnem]

680.22 (A) (3)

Where a permanently installed pool is installed at a dwelling unit(s), no fewer than one......(receptacle)........

"at a dwelling unit(s)"
I think the pool is required to be supplied from the common landlord power [210.25(B)] and would not be considered to be at a dwelling unit(s). . It would be considered to be part of a commercial landlord distribution.

Many times they don't want to provide access to electrical power anywhere around a pool open to the public.

 

[frizbeedog]

While the apartments may be considered dwelling units, the pool, per the building code, is considered a public pool, the same as a park pool or a pool at the YMCA.

For your consideration....

2005 Handbook commentary:

As required by 680.22(A)(3), each permanently installed pool in a residential setting is required to have at least one receptacle, which must be located at least 10 ft from the pool and not more than 20 ft from the pool. The intent of this requirement is to permit ordinary appliances to be safely plugged in and used near the pool but to avoid the need for extension cords in the vicinity of the pool. The 10-ft minimum dimension was chosen so that an appliance with a 6-ft cord could not be accidentally knocked into the pool.

Here's what I consider Commercial applications: Hotels, Schools, Health Clubs, Dive Centers, NASA...etc.

Let's go to intent. It's always a good place to go. :smile:

Previously I posted this:

Quote: frizbeedog
Where a permanently installed pool is installed at a dwelling unit(s), no fewer than one......(receptacle)........

Quote: frizbeedog
Dwelling, Multifamily. A building that contains three or more dwelling units

Even before reading the commentary from the handbook, it was pretty clear to me that this is a residential setting. The usage habits of peope would be the same in an apartment complex (multifamily dwelling) a.k.a. dwelling unit(s), as those of people in a single family dwelling (residence).

....and that the receptacle is required to be installed....by the funky wording of 680.22(A)(3)

The code wording doesn't jive with your building code. Which you have yet to post.

 

[acrwc10]

However, I do have a followup: How close can an outdoor GFCI receptacle be placed to the outdoor hot tub?

(P. S. Your replies have positively contributed to the outcome of the installation. )

I just took my ICC commercial electrical inspectors test and that is one of the questions on the test.

 

[cowboyjwc]

For your consideration....



Here's what I consider Commercial applications: Hotels, Schools, Health Clubs, Dive Centers, NASA...etc.

Let's go to intent. It's always a good place to go. :smile:

Previously I posted this:





Even before reading the commentary from the handbook, it was pretty clear to me that this is a residential setting. The usage habits of peope would be the same in an apartment complex (multifamily dwelling) a.k.a. dwelling unit(s), as those of people in a single family dwelling (residence).

....and that the receptacle is required to be installed....by the funky wording of 680.22(A)(3)

The code wording doesn't jive with your building code. Which you have yet to post.

Sorry I still disagree. Remember not everything we deal with comes out of the NEC.

IBC 3101: Examples of public pools include those located in the following: Commercial building, hotel, motel. resort, automobile and trailer park, automobile court, mobile home park, campground, apartment house, condominium, townhouse, homeowner association, club, community building, public or private school, gymnasium and health establishments.

It may need to be more clear in the NEC, but I consider a dwelling unit to be one and two family when we are talking about pools.

In the definitions a dwelling unit is "a single unit". Multifamily has it's own definition

 

[frizbeedog]

cowboyjwc
Sorry I still disagree.

You may have nothing left to disagree with me about. Thanks for the IBC definition. I can live with that.

cowboyjwc
It may need to be more clear in the NEC, but I consider a dwelling unit to be one and two family when we are talking about pools.

Right, the wording. Thanks.

:smile:

 

[acrwc10]

Sorry I still disagree. Remember not everything we deal with comes out of the NEC.

IBC 3101: Examples of public pools include those located in the following: Commercial building, hotel, motel. resort, automobile and trailer park, automobile court, mobile home park, campground, apartment house, condominium, townhouse, homeowner association, club, community building, public or private school, gymnasium and health establishments.

It may need to be more clear in the NEC, but I consider a dwelling unit to be one and two family when we are talking about pools.

In the definitions a dwelling unit is "a single unit". Multifamily has it's own definition

What is an automobile court ?

 

[dnem]

What is an automobile court ?

Where cars get sued for alimony and Mini Cooper support :roll:

 

[cowboyjwc]

What is an automobile court ?

Beats the heck out of me. I'll have to Goggle it when I get some time today.

Frizbeedog, this is the kind of thing that brings up good discussion and makes you dig in the book and learn something no matter which side of the discussion you take. I will concede this though, there are probably inspectors out there that will call it the way you see it.:smile:

 

[guschash]

08 680.43(A) 6ft for receptacle

 

[ike5547]

For your consideration....

2005 Handbook commentary:

As required by 680.22(A)(3), each permanently installed pool in a residential setting is required to have at least one receptacle, which must be located at least 10 ft from the pool and not more than 20 ft from the pool. The intent of this requirement is to permit ordinary appliances to be safely plugged in and used near the pool but to avoid the need for extension cords in the vicinity of the pool. The 10-ft minimum dimension was chosen so that an appliance with a 6-ft cord could not be accidentally knocked into the pool.

[/quote]

I don't think the NEC Handbooks are enforceable or have any actual authority.

 

[George Stolz]

I don't think the NEC Handbooks are enforceable or have any actual authority.

Agreed, but it can be helpful when bolstering or undermining an opinion.

 

[SEO]

Agreed, but it can be helpful when bolstering or undermining an opinion.

I agree that the handbook is not enforceable but the comentary offers a lot of incite on sections of the code from " behind the scene".

 

[dnem]

680.22 (A) (3)
Where a permanently installed pool is installed at a dwelling unit(s), no fewer than one......(receptacle)........

2005 Handbook commentary:
As required by 680.22(A)(3), each permanently installed pool in a residential setting is required to have at least one receptacle, which must be located at least 10 ft from the pool and not more than 20 ft from the pool. The intent of this requirement is to permit ordinary appliances to be safely plugged in and used near the pool but to avoid the need for extension cords in the vicinity of the pool. The 10-ft minimum dimension was chosen so that an appliance with a 6-ft cord could not be accidentally knocked into the pool.

I didn't see a receptacle required by the wording of 680.22(A)(3) because it uses the word "at", "at a dwelling unit". . I wouldn't classify something covered by 210.25(B) as being at a dwelling unit [side note: the 2008 version of 210.25(B) is even more specific about dwellings].

But when the Handbook word "setting" was added, "in a residential setting ", that complicated things. . I think the building code, IBC3101, answer is the best solution to interpreting the classification of the pool.

IBC 3101: Examples of public pools include those located in the following: Commercial building, hotel, motel. resort, automobile and trailer park, automobile court, mobile home park, campground, apartment house, condominium, townhouse, homeowner association, club, community building, public or private school, gymnasium and health establishments.

It may need to be more clear in the NEC, but I consider a dwelling unit to be one and two family when we are talking about pools.

In the definitions a dwelling unit is "a single unit". Multifamily has it's own definition

But multifamily units are made up of single units.

I think that line of reasoning could get you in trouble. . I would stick to 210.25(B) to decide if the pool is at the dwelling unit or is part of a larger commercial setting that includes dwelling units.

One thing that may be helpful is to consider why there is a plug requirement for dwelling pools and not for commercial pools. . In a dwelling, if there is no outside plug for something such as a radio, an extension cord makes its appearance and gets plugged into a non-GFCI plug inside and strung thru the window. . At a public pool, no one comes in with an extension cord and no one opens the club house window to run the cord thru without the management saying, "What the 7734 are you doing ?!"

 

[dnem]

Agreed, but it can be helpful when bolstering or undermining an opinion.

Only if it bolsters my opinion and undermines yours

 

[George Stolz]

I have to admit, I only like the handbook when it agrees with me.

 

[frizbeedog]

At a public pool, no one comes in with an extension cord and no one opens the club house window to run the cord thru without the management saying, "What the 7734 are you doing ?!"

On this point, we can't be sure. Can we?

The wording that confuses me is Dwelling unit(s)

I can live without the receptacle in the (as we're calling it) commercial application (by saying an apartment complex is commercial)....but that's me, and that's the way it's interpreted.....but is our interpretation correct, as written?

...and, can the residential population live without it.

We seem to have the attidude that people only do stupid things in a single residence or duplex, but once we say that this is a commercial application, all bets are off.

I'm saying it's about the habits of people in a given environment.

I agree with the handbook interpretation as this being a residential setting in regards to what people do.

when I see Dwelling Unit(s) in 680.22(A)(3)...what am I to think?

As an installer I look to definitions.

Dwelling, Multifamily. A building that contains three or more dwelling units.

unit(s)....

IBC vs. NEC.....we have a discrepancy.

 

[cowboyjwc]

On this point, we can't be sure. Can we?

The wording that confuses me is Dwelling unit(s)

I can live without the receptacle in the (as we're calling it) commercial application (by saying an apartment complex is commercial)....but that's me, and that's the way it's interpreted.....but is our interpretation correct, as written?

...and, can the residential population live without it.

We seem to have the attidude that people only do stupid things in a single residence or duplex, but once we say that this is a commercial application, all bets are off.

I'm saying it's about the habits of people in a given environment.

I agree with the handbook interpretation as this being a residential setting in regards to what people do.

when I see Dwelling Unit(s) in 680.22(A)(3)...what am I to think?

As an installer I look to definitions.



unit(s)....

IBC vs. NEC.....we have a discrepancy.

Just to be clear, I never said you were wrong in your thinking, in fact I believe that you are right on.:smile: But, I can't tell you how many times on this site I've been jumped on and told that you can't inspect to what people might do. Maybe a code change is in order.

Also I never said you can't put one in, I simply said that it's not required. If you put it in make sure that it's at least 10' away, but that still doesn't keep someone from bringing down a 25' extension cord.:smile:

You can't outlaw stupidity.