three and four way swithes

[Dickieboy]

I would have one conduit leaving the panel ,it would carry a hot and neutral,it would "tee "and one conduit would go to the first 3-way and carry two hots , one switchleg and one traveller,the conduit would continue from that "tee" to the next "tee"with one hot,one neutral,one switchleg and one traveller,that "tee" would go to the light and carry the now spliced switchleg and the neutral,the conduit would continue from the "tee" on to the other 3-way where it carries one hot ,one traveller and one switchleg.In this arrangement I always have at least 2 conductors in any one conduit carrying current at any time the light is on,unless I missed one but I checked it 3 times so I don't think so.

Its a matter of how the conductors are grouped as you know.

dick

 

[peter]

Irregardless, or maybe it's regardless, of the magnetic problems, et alia, the diagramed 3-way switch scheme is not a good one. Each switch in a true 3-way system should be able to independently be able to turn the light bulb on or off. The way the sketch is diagramed, if the opposite switch is connected between the common point and the hot side, there is no way in Haiti that the first switch could cause the lumens to spring with dynamic vigor from the watt to lux conversion device.
This scheme is utterly bogus and needs to be properly rethunk.
~Peter

 

[al hildenbrand]

This scheme is utterly bogus and needs to be properly rethunk.
~Peter

Hi Peter,

Actually, it does work.

Make four copies of the diagram, changing one switch at a time until you have all four possible switch positions shown. Take a highlighter and highlight the path from the Hot (bottom wire) to the Neutral (top wire). You'll have the light OFF when both switches are UP or both DOWN. When the switches are NOT both up or down, the light is ON.

Cover with drywall and put cover plates over the switches and you can't tell the difference from other threeway configurations.

 

[ronaldrc]

Als fourway

Als fourway

Hi Al

Remember me I have already made four copies remember
"Thanks"



http://home.comcast.net/~ronaldrc/wsb/Traveling_Bos_Fourway/1tb.htm

 

[ronaldrc]

Peter

Just for the record the circuit does work.

The only difference between my circuit and Als sketched circuit is the neutral
conductor is at the top and my is shown in the bottom of the circuit.

There would be eddy current problems but no experienced electrician would ever wire this switch this way I hope. Nothing to gain takes four conductors eitherway.

At the time Myself and others where discussing this we where just talking about oddball switch configurations.

 

[ronaldrc]

Don't really exspect a response for some reason???

But I added a extra fourway

 

[peter]

Al,
"You'll have the light OFF when both switches are UP or both DOWN. When the switches are NOT both up or down, the light is ON."
This is precisely the problem. If you're at the top of the stairs and you flip the switch down, the bulb will not light if the switch at the bottom of the stairs is also down. You would have to go down to the bottom switch at flip the bottom switch up to turn on the light. By then it would be to late.
If you are at the top of the stairs and you flip the switch up and the switch at the bottom of the dank, rickety stairs without handrails is also up, then you would turn the light off?
And so on.
But the purpose of a three-way setup is to allow total control of the light bulb from either location. I am just pointing out that the diagramed pencil sketch does not always do this.
~Peter

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Al,
"You'll have the light OFF when both switches are UP or both DOWN. When the switches are NOT both up or down, the light is ON."
This is precisely the problem. If you're at the top of the stairs and you flip the switch down, the bulb will not light if the switch at the bottom of the stairs is also down. You would have to go down to the bottom switch at flip the bottom switch up to turn on the light. By then it would be to late.
If you are at the top of the stairs and you flip the switch up and the switch at the bottom of the dank, rickety stairs without handrails is also up, then you would turn the light off?
And so on.
Peter

Peter- I think this diagram works-- The common terminal is not wired to the hot wire like a usual 3 way switch. If both switches are up and you are upstairs you turn the upstairs switch down and the light is on. Look at the diagram again. Maybe I am missing something.

 

[stickboy1375]

I'm not the brightest, but just knowing how a 3way and 4way work, I can tell you that diagram will work....

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I'm not the brightest, but just knowing how a 3way and 4way work, I can tell you that diagram will work....

Don't sell yourself short, Stickboy. The diagram will work and you are no dummy.

 

[stickboy1375]

Thanks... IMO, I think Peter is just forgetting how a 4way actually works...

 

[George Stolz]

I have no doubt Peter knows how a threeway works.

I think he's not looking close enough. The Travelling Bus is a normal threeway turned on it's head, it's the exact opposite of a normal threeway. When I first saw it I stared at the diagram for over ten minutes, taking it in.

He'll see it.

 

[al hildenbrand]

Ronald,

It's nice to hear you, here. I went looking for your home page, but the links weren't working.

Peter,

Trust us, that pencil sketch is accurate. It has the classic behaviour of two threeways wired a conventional way.

Take a couple threeways, a keyless and a couple feet of 14/2 and wire it the way the pencil sketch is drawn. . . you'll have fun.

And then you can show it to some of the others around you.

 

[al hildenbrand]

Here's the thing about that switching scheme. If you stay doing much residential troubleshooting in existing dwellings, you will eventually run into this sucker.

The only way to get everything to work again, without tearing out and rewiring, is to remember that this thing exists. The hard part, the first time, will be to sketch out the circuit again. If you can remember that the wire that connects common to common doesn't connect to anything else, and the hot is a traveler and then goes on to unswitched outlets, you'll probably be able to dope out the circuit.

The hot is the traveler, hence the name Bennie gave it: Traveling Bus.

 

[peter]

Uncle! OK. I'll admit it. I spent an entire sheet of paper [but still have the other half available] and drew the four sketches and indeed this is the greatest thing since sliced salami. It works and I admit I was wrong as a hangnail and stupid as a sheeple and dense as lead sinker. My vital apologies for daring to doubt your Tibetan wisdom.
--Political comment removed--
~Peter

 

[wasasparky]

Has anyone cited 410.90 yet?

 

[al hildenbrand]

2008 NEC
410.90 Screw Shell Type.

Lampholders of the screw shell type shall be installed for use as lampholders only. Where supplied by a circuit having a grounded conductor, the grounded conductor shall be connected to the screw shell.

Is this the passage you mean?

If so, it's not violated in the two wire circuit in my sketch.

 

[stickboy1375]

Has anyone cited 410.90 yet?

Wheres the violation?

 

[rbwsparky]

Edison thought he was the smartest electricin on earth. Tesla proved he wasn't.

 

[LarryFine]

Edison thought he was the smartest electricin on earth. Tesla proved he wasn't.

And Westinghouse recognized that.