Three phase in property, single phase services w/ ESS

[gar]

221006-1310 EDT

texie:

Do you know how to do vector arithmetic or another name is phasor?

.

 

[rambojoe]

So first it's a castle, then a house? And it's 200,000sqf?!
I've seen battery backup on that level with data centers... not houses. But you did end up with single phase so that kinda adds up... I know it's not your question, but, what the heck are you looking at over there? Dare I guess?

 

[jkahn299]

The utility is seriously willing to give you two 1200A services but not three phase? How many times have you asked them?

I was pretty surprised by this as well. We're just handling the energy storage component of the project so I'd assume bugging the utility would fall into wheelhouse of the GC or the engineer on the project... It's in a pretty remote location outside of a very small town in Colorado so there may be some physical constraints on the utility.

 

[jkahn299]

One big question is how the calculated load compares to the ESS capacity, the utility capacity, and any local generation (PV).

The utility might not be interested in upgrading their infrastructure if they expect minimal consumption from the customer.

You have half a megawatt of utility service, but I bet that even a 200k square foot castle doesn't use nearly that much. (On the other hand, 100x the size of my house with 25x the electrical service...)

Jon

Jon, this is quite a good point... We're working with our local utility on this exact thing with large vacation homes in our area that want backup power but are not in use the majority of the year. We're installing large backup systems, or in this case a mini powerplant that the utility could benefit from, it's just a question of getting the software set up at this point. It may be a great foot in the door with this other utility as well. I'd love any recourses you think would be useful in this area of distributed energy. I'm curious about how the addition of a three phase service in a low-use scenario for a system that size would be a greater benefit than multiple single phase systems? From the perspective of the utility as you mentioned.

 

[jkahn299]

221006-1310 EDT

texie:

Do you know how to do vector arithmetic or another name is phasor?

.

Gar, I did plenty of vector arithmetic in college but I've been in the energy efficiency space since then, until I took this new gig. Haven't had to dive into many real life scenarios and applications of three-phase power until recently. My power and energy classes in college we're great, but I walked away with way more mathematical theory than practical applications in the commercial and residential space. Any recourses you think would be helpful in this realm would be appreciated!

 

[jkahn299]

So first it's a castle, then a house? And it's 200,000sqf?!
I've seen battery backup on that level with data centers... not houses. But you did end up with single phase so that kinda adds up... I know it's not your question, but, what the heck are you looking at over there? Dare I guess?

Your guess is as good as mine... A testament to a man's arrogance.

 

[gar]

221010-2147 EDT

jkahn299:

See these discussions:

Steinmetz_and_the_Concept_of_Phasor-A_Forgotten_Story.pdf

The Intuition Behind Phasors and Their Applications

Lies aside, Mathematics is inherently difficult. They require abstract thinking and the ability to manipulate mathematical symbols with…

medium.com

Vectors

www.math.mcgill.ca

Vectors

This is a vector ... A vector has magnitude (size) and direction

www.mathsisfun.com

.

 

[gar]

221010-2218 EDT


You will have to start at this location ---
"https://www.researchgate.net/public...z_and_the_Concept_of_Phasor_A_Forgotten_Story",
then you need to access the story to get a readable view.



.

 

[winnie]

Jon, this is quite a good point... We're working with our local utility on this exact thing with large vacation homes in our area that want backup power but are not in use the majority of the year. We're installing large backup systems, or in this case a mini powerplant that the utility could benefit from, it's just a question of getting the software set up at this point. It may be a great foot in the door with this other utility as well. I'd love any recourses you think would be useful in this area of distributed energy. I'm curious about how the addition of a three phase service in a low-use scenario for a system that size would be a greater benefit than multiple single phase systems? From the perspective of the utility as you mentioned.

I don't have any practical experience in this, just what I've read here. My direct experience is with electric motor research.

My understanding is that utility standard practice us to pay for capital costs by selling kWh over time. But this model fails when the customer is self generating most of their consumption.

You are now asking how you can sweeten the deal for the utility. I know that where I live in western MA the utility is willing to pay to use customer energy storage capacity. Perhaps this would be your way in. Ask how large a grid support energy storage system would need to be to make it worth their money providing 3-phase.

Going the other direction, if you are already designing the system to self produce most consumption, then does the customer really need full backup from the utility? The only reason to want 3 phase from the utility is to match everything from the utility, internal wiring, and energy storage system.

Jon

Jon

 

[jkahn299]

The utility is seriously willing to give you two 1200A services but not three phase? How many times have you asked them?

They don't want to pay for the infrastructure needed to bring 3-phase that far apparently.

 

[hornetd]

I worked for a company that did a lot of very creative alternative and remote energy projects. I had the privilege of working on the installation of several of them. One of the companies projects which I did not get to work on was done for a local utility that did not want to pay for the outside plant necessary to supply a remote group of homes several thousand yards from the closest, already inadequate, distribution line. The utility kept asking the owners of this group of ~50 homes to pay for the installation of the required outside plant. All of that came to a screeching halt when the homeowners applied to the state for the creation of an electrical cooperative to supply electricity to the community by building a line to a power grid inter-distribution line which was not that much further away than the line that the utility wanted the customers to pay for bringing to their homes. I have no idea what the legal consequences of having a cooperative provider start up in your service area but the consequences must have seamed unbearable to the incumbent utility. They paid the company that I was working for to build a very large photovoltaic array and a lot of battery capacity to serve as the neighborhoods stand alone power generation facility. I can't help but wonder why the existing stock utility was so alarmed at the possibility of that electrical cooperative coming into existence.

 

[jaggedben]

I worked for a company that did a lot of very creative alternative and remote energy projects. I had the privilege of working on the installation of several of them. One of the companies projects which I did not get to work on was done for a local utility that did not want to pay for the outside plant necessary to supply a remote group of homes several thousand yards from the closest, already inadequate, distribution line. The utility kept asking the owners of this group of ~50 homes to pay for the installation of the required outside plant. All of that came to a screeching halt when the homeowners applied to the state for the creation of an electrical cooperative to supply electricity to the community by building a line to a power grid inter-distribution line which was not that much further away than the line that the utility wanted the customers to pay for bringing to their homes. I have no idea what the legal consequences of having a cooperative provider start up in your service area but the consequences must have seamed unbearable to the incumbent utility. They paid the company that I was working for to build a very large photovoltaic array and a lot of battery capacity to serve as the neighborhoods stand alone power generation facility. I can't help but wonder why the existing stock utility was so alarmed at the possibility of that electrical cooperative coming into existence.

That's incredible. (The part I find incredible is the stand alone grid, not the utility being scared of a cooperative.) If you don't mind telling us, what state was that in?

 

[hornetd]

That's incredible. (The part I find incredible is the stand alone grid, not the utility being scared of a cooperative.) If you don't mind telling us, what state was that in?

Virginia but I can no longer recall which county. It was down toward the Southwest corner of the State but not all the way down there.

 

[yesterlectric]

I have not heard of a 1200A single phase service before. I've installed large 3 phase services but never a single phase service that big. I am surprised you can get it and I would be even more surprised if they let you backfeed the meter at single phase with that type of install. Are you exporting power too?

@gar: any schematics of such a configuration? never heard of it.

"In our area it is extremely common to take two phases from a three phase source to two transformers to provide a three phase output even though there is three phase power available at the transformer input. Thus, only the cost of two transformers. If the three phase load increases in the future, then it may only the need the addition of another transformer."

 

[jkahn299]

I have not heard of a 1200A single phase service before. I've installed large 3 phase services but never a single phase service that big. I am surprised you can get it and I would be even more surprised if they let you backfeed the meter at single phase with that type of install. Are you exporting power too?

@gar: any schematics of such a configuration? never heard of it.

Well let me blow your mind with a 1600A single phase service. This is going in on a project I'm working on. These "Luxury" homes are insane. And yes, we can export power, most of these homes also have solar and are vacation homes, so the rest of the year they just produce back to the grid and keep the batteries charged.