Tia for Pool Definition Change

Dennis Alwon

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Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
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Electrical Contractor
For the last few years I have been saying to friends that the definition for storable pools is ridiculous. How can a pool that is 20' across and 40" deep - sometimes with decks built around them- be considered a storable pool.

Well 2 people have finally decided it was time for a change. I am sorry I didn't think about when I was doing proposals- submittals. The link is below but of course you must be a nfpa member to read it. Membership is free to use the site

 

Little Bill

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Location
Tennessee NEC:2017
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Electrician
Looks to me like it reads the opposite of what you're saying. They are proposing to stop calling any those pools that hold more than 42" of water permanent pools. By "those" I mean storable. They are saying that just because they hold more than 42" of water they shouldn't be classified as permenant because you can't meet the requirements for bonding, etc.
 

Dennis Alwon

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Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
This is what it states

Storable Swimming, Wading, or Immersion Pools; or and Storable/Portable Spas and Hot Tubs. Those that are constructed assembled on or above the ground that are intended to be stored when not in use and are designed for ease of relocation.
That would mean a large pool that is not storable even tho it is under 42" would not be considered storable.

I thought that is what I was saying.

Take a 20' diameter pool that has a deck built around it. It is 40" deep. This will no longer be considered a storable pool because it is not intended to be stored.
 

texie

Senior Member
Location
Fort Collins, Colorado
Occupation
Electrician, Contractor, Inspector
He makes a good case. Note that this was submitted by Jim Dollard who is big man on campus at the NEC so I expect t will pass readily.
 

shortcircuit2

Senior Member
Location
South of Bawstin
I read that TIA yesterday and Dollard makes some good points...in that the way these pools are constructed, there is no way to comply with the permanent pool requirements....20 foot cords with GFCI cord caps on double insulated motors, no way to bond parts of the pool, etc
 

augie47

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Staff member
Location
Tennessee
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State Electrical Inspector
I;m glad some of you understand it as I don't. He seems (to me) to argue the 42" is a arbitrary number (I agree) and notes that "storable pools"
don't easily fit the 680 requirements.
On one hand it seems to argue 680.26 should not be required regardless of pool depth where you have the wood deckks, etc. and on the other hand argues ALL pools that can't be disassembled quickly would be "permanent" regardless of water depth. Hopefully as you discuss it, it will become clear to me,.
 

Little Bill

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Staff member
Location
Tennessee NEC:2017
Occupation
Electrician
This is what made me think they were against calling a pool over 42" a permanent pool.

Identifying
a storable pool as a permanent pool due to a couple of inches in water height has absolutely
nothing to do with electrical safety.
 

Fred B

Senior Member
Location
Upstate, NY
Occupation
Electrician
I really wish the NEC would obsess with theory and intent as much as it does syntax and semantics ....~RJ~
I think the problem lays with the fact that they may present theory and intent, but interpretation revolves around the syntax and semantics. This is clearly seen by the amounts of discussion that goes on in these forums around "what does this code mean?", with replies "I see it this way" and someone else sees it another. Thus alot of changes each cycle revolve around syntax and semantics because common interpretation seemed to be different from original intent. Much of the ambiguity within the code is a result of trying to keep within the scope of the code stated in 90.1(A) while acknowledging in 90.1(B) "not necessarily efficient, convenient, or adequate for good service or future expansion".
Even within these forums how many times have we seen, "I didn't mean it that way, but this".
 
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Dennis Alwon

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Chapel Hill, NC
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Electrical Contractor
I just re-read the Dollard proposal and I am not sure what he is trying to do.

Here is the submitted wording

680.2 Definitions. … Storable Swimming, Wading, or Immersion Pools; or and Storable/Portable Spas and Hot Tubs. Swimming, wading, or immersion pools and spas and hot tubs assembled on or above the ground that are intended to be stored when not in use and are designed for ease of relocation.
This clearly, IMO, is meaning that most pools except kids pools and a few others would not meet the requirement of a storable pool. The last part that is underlined is the giveaway, IMO.

The rest of the diatribe I am not sure what to make of it.
 

rnatalie

Senior Member
Location
Catawba, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Engineer
I've seen a few of the "endless pool" things that are indeed moveable (in fact the company drags them out to the big triathlons). Mine however is bolted together and not particularly easy to move (though mine is sitting jacked up on 3ton dollies right now because they're doing work in that room).
 

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
...
Take a 20' diameter pool that has a deck built around it. It is 40" deep. This will no longer be considered a storable pool because it is not intended to be stored.
If the pool itself is a "storable pool" what you install around it, does not change any of the rules. Maybe it should, but with the TIA nothing in Part II of Article 680 will apply to any storable pool.
 

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
This clearly, IMO, is meaning that most pools except kids pools and a few others would not meet the requirement of a storable pool. The last part that is underlined is the giveaway, IMO.
...
I read it just the opposite...any pool marked as "storable" by the manufacturer will not be required to comply with the requirements of Part II of 680. A couple of things from the substantiation:
... The storable pool industry has been manufacturing storable pools with wall heights of 48 inches
for over 40 years without any negative impact on electrical safety. ...
Storable pools are easily identified. They are set on level ground. They come in a complete
package, are typically set up in an hour without tools and the instruction manual clearly identifies
it as a storable pool. ...
Today, the AHJ is put in a very tough position when a storable pool with a maximum water
depth just over 42 inches is installed. The AHJ understands it is a storable pool, that is easily
determined, however, the AHJ understands the defined term limits the maximum water depth to
42 inches. The AHJ knows that: (1) the equipotential bonding cannot be bonded to the pool at
four points, (2) the pool water cannot be bonded, (3) the pool pump is double insulated and
cannot be bonded and (4) the equipotential bonding cannot be connected to the EGC of the
branch circuit supplying the pump motor. This situation needs to be addressed. ...
 
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