Tie bar (2) 1P circuit breakers together or run a new dedicated conductors (neutral)?

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espiritiv

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So i have a bathroom remodel i am going to do soon. The house is built in 1970s and no work has been done on it yet. I wanted to get my scope of work together for the electrician.

The bedroom and bathroom are each on there own 15A 1P circuit breakers, but the wiring is a shared neutral. I know this was not against code back then. With the upgrade of the bathroom i need to install a GFCI circuit breaker, rather than put a GFCI receptacle as the first receptacle in the bathroom circuit. (why do this?, because my bathroom receptacle will be a USB/receptacle type.)

Here is the question: Can i put in the new GFCI breaker for bathroom, and use a tie bar to meet 210.4(b) to simultaneously disconnect when the GFCI trips? Or is it worth the time and money to pull a new set of conductors from the basement to the attic, to connect back to the bathroom circuit so that it has it own neutral wire?
 
If you are redoing the bathrooms and moving the receptacles then they will have to be 20 amp so the idea of using the multiwire branch circuit of the existing 14/3 is a no go. BTW you can use breaker ties on multiwire branch circuit's but in this case it will not be compliant because it is 15 amp
 
espiritiv said:
... and use a tie bar to meet 210.4(b) to simultaneously disconnect when the GFCI trips? ....
Click to expand...
That won't happen. Because of the trip free feature of both handles tripping one breaker will not necessarily manually trip the other through the handle tie. The common trip must be internal to the breaker(s).

That said, the NEC does not require common trip, just that the manual operation of one handle must also operate the other.


And finally, as Dennis said, it simply cannot be made compliant with the existing 14/3.

If you had 12/3 you could still replace the existing single gang box with a two gang box and put in both a GFCI and a USB charging receptacle combo. I don't think you would even need a 20A GFCI receptacle if you did that.
 
To be honest, I don't wire houses or any kind of dwelling units, but shouldn't the gfi in the tripped position open both the line and natal for that recep? I'm not familiar with house wiring or codes involved , keep in mind. Is there a codw saying the bedroom must be protected and what is the service required availability in the br and the bedroom? I mean instead of running through the recep to give the second room a neutral, can't you just make a pigtail ND tie it in that way, or does the bedroom also require protection?
 
Tom the lectrician said:
To be honest, I don't wire houses or any kind of dwelling units, but shouldn't the gfi in the tripped position open both the line and natal for that recep? I'm not familiar with house wiring or codes involved , keep in mind. Is there a code saying the bedroom must be protected and what is the service required availability in the br and the bedroom?
Click to expand...

I have no idea what the natal is but a gfci only trips the load side not the line side. Bathrooms receptacles must be gfci protected and be on a 20 amp circuit
 
210.11

(C)(3) Bathroom Branch Circuits. In addition to the number
of branch circuits required by other parts of this section, at
least one 120-volt, 20-ampere branch circuit shall be provided
to supply a bathroom receptacle outlet(s). Such circuits
shall have no other outlets.
Exception: Where the 20-ampere circuit supplies a single
bathroom, outlets for other equipment within the same
bathroom shall be permitted to be supplied in accordance
with 210.23(A)(1) and (A)(2).
ARTICLE 210—BRANCH CIRCUITS 210.11
2014
Click to expand...
 
So i have a bathroom remodel i am going to do soon. The house is built in 1970s and no work has been done on it yet. I wanted to get my scope of work together for the electrician.
Click to expand...

How about this- you tell your electrician that you are doing a bath remodel. Your electrical scope of work will specify the lighting fixtures, that USB charger receptacle, fan, Jaccuzzi etc. HE will tell YOU what needs to be done, not the other way around.

-Hal
 
Tom the lectrician said:
To be honest, I don't wire houses or any kind of dwelling units, but shouldn't the gfi in the tripped position open both the line and natal for that recep?
Click to expand...

A GFCI receptacle opens both line and neutral, both to the receptacle and to downstream loads. It does that so that it will surely interrupt the line even if the incoming wires are crossed.
A GFCI breaker, on the other hand, interrupts only the line conductor. The neutral passes through it so that the current can be compared to the line current, but there are no interrupting contacts for the neutral.

When a modern breaker trips, the handle goes to a middle position, not the full off position. But even if it went all the way to OFF it would not necessarily be able to exert enough force on the other handle to trip it or more to the point turn it to OFF also. (There is no way to get the second breaker just to the TRIP position using its handle.)
The first breaker is designed to trip normally even if you hold its handle in the ON position, so it does not need to apply a lot of force to its own handle when it trips.
 
Dennis Alwon said:
Depends on how you look at it... It is the load side of the breaker---:D
Click to expand...

OK, line as in ungrounded. Otherwise known as hot. A poor choice of words on my part, just following the distinction used by the OP. :cool:

And actually, I suspect that it also removes power from the electronic circuitry inside the unit. Anybody know for sure?
 
GoldDigger said:
That won't happen. Because of the trip free feature of both handles tripping one breaker will not necessarily manually trip the other through the handle tie. The common trip must be internal to the breaker(s). .
Click to expand...

Not necessary with a MWBC

GoldDigger said:
That said, the NEC does not require common trip, just that the manual operation of one handle must also operate the other.


And finally, as Dennis said, it simply cannot be made compliant with the existing 14/3.

If you had 12/3 you could still replace the existing single gang box with a two gang box and put in both a GFCI and a USB charging receptacle combo. I don't think you would even need a 20A GFCI receptacle if you did that.
Click to expand...

Why would you ever need a 20 amp GFCI receptacle? 15 amp is always ok on a 20 amp circuit

espiritiv said:
So i have a bathroom remodel i am going to do soon. The house is built in 1970s and no work has been done on it yet. I wanted to get my scope of work together for the electrician.

The bedroom and bathroom are each on there own 15A 1P circuit breakers, but the wiring is a shared neutral. I know this was not against code back then. With the upgrade of the bathroom i need to install a GFCI circuit breaker, rather than put a GFCI receptacle as the first receptacle in the bathroom circuit. (why do this?, because my bathroom receptacle will be a USB/receptacle type.)

Here is the question: Can i put in the new GFCI breaker for bathroom, and use a tie bar to meet 210.4(b) to simultaneously disconnect when the GFCI trips? Or is it worth the time and money to pull a new set of conductors from the basement to the attic, to connect back to the bathroom circuit so that it has it own neutral wire?
Click to expand...

Even if code compliant it would never work as this is a MWB with of course a shared Neutral. The GFCI would not hold if there is any load on the other circuit.
 
Sierrasparky said:
Not necessary with a MWBC

Which I stated.



Why would you ever need a 20 amp GFCI receptacle? 15 amp is always ok on a 20 amp circuit

Not if there is only a single receptacle on the circuit. And some combined USB power supplies have only one receptacle.



Even if code compliant it would never work as this is a MWB with of course a shared Neutral. The GFCI would not hold if there is any load on the other circuit.
True. It would only work with a two pole GFCI breaker, in which case it would also have common trip.
Click to expand...


See above.
 
No one has asked: is your panel capable of supporting AFCI/GFCI breakers?

Depending on the extent of the remodel, new circuits may or may not be required. If the only thing you are changing is the cosmetics (what most would call an "update") and nothing structural, not opening walls or moving receptacles, new electrical generally isnt required (here anyway).

Also, Hal hit it on the head. You spec what you want to the electrician; he will figure the scope of work.

If the house was built early 70s and has AL wire, you can count on most ECs wanting to pull new wire.

MWBC are still legal now, tho in most residential construction, most ECs would opt for 2 1p AFCI/GFCI breakers vs a single 2p, with 2 runs of 1x/2 vs one of 1x/3.

You are better off speccing a 2 gang box in the bathroom, with a standard GFCI feeding a duplex/2-port USB on the load side. The materials cost for this over one receptacle is negligible ($35 or less).
 
Since the op has not come back I am closing the thread as it is not clear if he is doing the work or is it a job he is engineering for someone.
 
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