time of use billing

junkhound

junkhound

Senior Member
Location
Renton, WA
Occupation
EE, power electronics specialty
PSE (WA state) started a trial run of time of use TOU billing for electric heat customers.
started out with 31 cent on peak, and 9 cents off peak. Part of a 1000 or so customer trial period started last year

new rates, 11 cent off peak, 52 cent peak. WOW, big jump,in on-peak, standard tarrif is 13 cents.

SO, last year saved 4-50 bucks a month, only slight discomfort as set TStat back during on peak.
new rates, cost me $30 extra, and still have the discomfort of the last hour or so of on peak (7-10 AM and 5-8 PM)

Thus, cancelled my participation. Methinks PSE jacked up the on-peak rate as a marketing tool, -- well they did find out at least one customer who cancelled TOU participation.
 
PG&E has outlandish peak pricing, but like you, off-peak is not much of a break.

I said no thanks.

If they really want it, they should make off peak worthwhile and cheap.
 
Birken Vogt said:
PG&E has outlandish peak pricing, but like you, off-peak is not much of a break.

I said no thanks.

If they really want it, they should make off peak worthwhile and cheap.
Click to expand...
PG&E bends the customers over & they do not use Vaseline. I have TOU rates from 4:00 - 9:00PM daily.
 
One of the strangest things I ever saw back when I briefly lived in California (over 10 years ago) was a huge diesel generator going full bore behind a supermarket when there was no power outage, the first time I saw it I figured it was a generator test, but I found out later it was to avoid peak demand billing.
 
'round here (upstate NY) I think there was a night rate program for quite a while in the 80's (maybe earlier?) thru the 90's. I know a fair number of people who have electric heat storage systems using water or bricks. My mom actually has such a system. Turns out she still on the night rate billing, but the cost difference is pretty minimal. Kind of surprised that faded out and that time of use rates in general are not as much of a thing as you would think 🤔
 
I ran the cost break down of what PG&E would cost/save by going with the "off peak discount", there is no savings.
Also the peak rate addition now includes a substantially lower buy back rate if you have PV and don't use the power you create. It is now so bad if you don't add an ESS/battery it isn't worth having PV.
 
acrwc10 said:
It is now so bad if you don't add an ESS/battery it isn't worth having PV.
Click to expand...

I'd like to know what the wearout costs are on a battery.

These modern batteries are reliable, but also they are Chinese, and they have not been around long enough to see what happens when they start wearing out. Also they are expensive.
 
Birken Vogt said:
I'd like to know what the wearout costs are on a battery.

These modern batteries are reliable, but also they are Chinese, and they have not been around long enough to see what happens when they start wearing out. Also they are expensive.
Click to expand...
I've been curious about this too. I sure notice my phone and laptop batteries run noticeably shorter after a few years.
 
These residential TOU schemes are mostly geared to increase the investor-owned utility profits. Demand charges would be more logical. The distribution system has to be built out to handle the maximum peaks that occur only a few times a year. Another approach would be to allow utilities to turn off water heaters, dryers, and maybe HVAC equipment for brief periods during extreme peak events. The technology exists to do this. BPA ran trial programs on this approach 20 years ago.
 
junkhound said:
PSE (WA state) started a trial run of time of use TOU billing for electric heat customers.
started out with 31 cent on peak, and 9 cents off peak. Part of a 1000 or so customer trial period started last year

new rates, 11 cent off peak, 52 cent peak. WOW, big jump,in on-peak, standard tarrif is 13 cents.

SO, last year saved 4-50 bucks a month, only slight discomfort as set TStat back during on peak.
new rates, cost me $30 extra, and still have the discomfort of the last hour or so of on peak (7-10 AM and 5-8 PM)

Thus, cancelled my participation. Methinks PSE jacked up the on-peak rate as a marketing tool, -- well they did find out at least one customer who cancelled TOU participation.
Click to expand...
Ours are 55.14¢ on peak, 6.48¢ off peak.
Peak times are 3:00PM-6:00PM April 16-Oct 15, and 6:00AM-8:00AM Oct 16-April 15.

Most that are on this rate are EV people and Solar people. Some with battery storage also.
 
electrofelon said:
Do people have the choice of a fixed rate?
Click to expand...
Absolutely.

Summer Months (June through October
First 3,000 kWh @ 11.92 ¢ per kWh
Over 3,000 kWh @ 11.33 ¢ per kWh

Winter Months (November through May)
First 1,000 kWh @ 11.45 ¢ per kWh
Next 2,000 kWh @ 10.79 ¢ per kWh
Over 3,000 kWh @ 9.50 ¢ per kWh
 
tortuga said:
One of the strangest things I ever saw back when I briefly lived in California (over 10 years ago) was a huge diesel generator going full bore behind a supermarket when there was no power outage, the first time I saw it I figured it was a generator test, but I found out later it was to avoid peak demand billing.
Click to expand...
Small town where I am has municipal run power system in the town. Been around 10 years or so now but they put in four large Diesel generators, they were primarily for peak demand purposes so they can A, purchase a lower demand level from their wholesale supplier and B, run how ever many of those generators is needed when they do have peak demand going to keep the imported power below the demand point.

Problem is almost nobody understands this and thinks the entire project was a big waste of $$, and complain every time there is power outage about why did they spend all that $$ on those generators (they need to be manually started and brought on line) so there is no instant change over when there is a loss on the supplier side. They also don't understand when there is distribution problems within town, there is going to be outages whether the generators are running or not.

I talked to the Electric Dept Superintendent back when they were building the generator station, the project was supposed to pay for itself in pretty short time simply by the reduced demand fees alone. They also have at times have run and back fed power into their supplier's system and of course did get compensation for that. Few years ago when we had really cold temps that dipped way south and into Texas and there were power shortages everywhere - they were feeding power into the grid from those- not a huge source but probably did help out for the region to some extent.
 
tortuga said:
One of the strangest things I ever saw back when I briefly lived in California (over 10 years ago) was a huge diesel generator going full bore behind a supermarket when there was no power outage, the first time I saw it I figured it was a generator test, but I found out later it was to avoid peak demand billing.
Click to expand...
We have a few businesses that do that.
One campus has a megawatt generator for outages and peak offset.

On-Peak kW of billing Demand @ $ 15.92 per kW

But all energy is at 4.25¢
 
What is weird to me, for anyone in California, the peak demand curve is skewed and they should be inverting it to offset for over generation of solar but I think there are issues currently with how the state regulates their rates. They are trying to make back the money they are losing on paying customers on their overgeneration of solar. The state forced that on them and now everyone is confused about why the day time is more expensive. They are paying other utility customers for their overgeneration.

There has been a odd shift to demand related charges or connection charges with income based adjustments or similar. I think they need to adjust the base connect cost and stop paying for overgeneration but that is just my opinion. It started to get really funky and skewed when they agreed to pay people pack for overgeneration of their solar. It should have just been a gift to the utility and not a rebate or payback. Big homes and large warehouses are making away like kings where the smaller properties are left carrying the mid day peak demand charges.

It is also more likely to impact manufacturing businesses that could never generate more than they make but do their manufacturing during the day.
 
Hv&Lv said:
We have a few businesses that do that.
One campus has a megawatt generator for outages and peak offset.

On-Peak kW of billing Demand @ $ 15.92 per kW

But all energy is at 4.25¢
Click to expand...
Interesting, so presumably that megawatt generator has a relay system to synchronize with the grid?
Can it export power back on to your grid or is it configured to zero export?
 
The peak time for solar is 9am to 3pm because the sun is up high, but the peak time for air conditioning is around 5pm because it gets hottest then. Most of the summer sun is useless by then. Also shortly after 5pm there is a spike, I guess everybody goes home and cooks their dinner on their green electric stove and showers and does dishes with their green electric water heater. Probably also kick their AC on because their thermostat was set back when they were away during the day.

I have seen a few west oriented solar arrays but they are rare.

Elect117 said:
What is weird to me, for anyone in California, the peak demand curve is skewed and they should be inverting it to offset for over generation of solar but I think there are issues currently with how the state regulates their rates. They are trying to make back the money they are losing on paying customers on their overgeneration of solar. The state forced that on them and now everyone is confused about why the day time is more expensive. They are paying other utility customers for their overgeneration.

There has been a odd shift to demand related charges or connection charges with income based adjustments or similar. I think they need to adjust the base connect cost and stop paying for overgeneration but that is just my opinion. It started to get really funky and skewed when they agreed to pay people pack for overgeneration of their solar. It should have just been a gift to the utility and not a rebate or payback. Big homes and large warehouses are making away like kings where the smaller properties are left carrying the mid day peak demand charges.

It is also more likely to impact manufacturing businesses that could never generate more than they make but do their manufacturing during the day.
Click to expand...
 
Birken Vogt said:
I have seen a few west oriented solar arrays but they are rare.
Click to expand...
What about panels that rotate according to position of sun? I don't know much first hand knowledge about PV as I've never installed any PV. There is a commercial solar farm in the area that I happen to drive by frequently, the panels there do change orientation through the day. Or is this something mostly only seen at commercial "solar farms"?
 
kwired said:
What about panels that rotate according to position of sun? I don't know much first hand knowledge about PV as I've never installed any PV. There is a commercial solar farm in the area that I happen to drive by frequently, the panels there do change orientation through the day. Or is this something mostly only seen at commercial "solar farms"?
Click to expand...
Residential trackers are fairly common. If I remember correctly, 2 axis tracking is theoretically a 40% increase in production.
 
tortuga said:
Interesting, so presumably that megawatt generator has a relay system to synchronize with the grid?
Can it export power back on to your grid or is it configured to zero export?
Click to expand...
It can export. There is a syncroscope and this generator does a soft transition. So they connect to the grid, and a breaker opens separating them.
We were doing some testing for/with them and tied them to our grid, went to the substation and opened the substation breaker to give it a decent load. It performed well.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top