I do all the bookwork, stats, accounting etc and my husband is in the field with the crews. For residential construction (Romex) we charge $45.00 opening (cans & fans more) which is market rate for our area. Excludes service, home owner buys fixtures. Small simple construction, about 150 openings each. It?s taking us nearly 200 hours to rough in and finish 150 openings. That?s about 90 minutes an opening turn key. This seems like a lot of time?? Any thoughts??
Time to Rough In & Finish Single Families
- Thread starter Pennylady
- Start date
- Status
mdshunk
Senior Member
- Location
- Right here.
Re: Time to Rough In & Finish Single Families
Penny.... I've been as fast as 22 minutes a hole, and as slow as 125 minutes a hole. It all depends on the construction type and how cut up the house is, etc. That's why bidding per hole or per square foot is silly. I do a takeoff as best I can on everything.
Penny.... I've been as fast as 22 minutes a hole, and as slow as 125 minutes a hole. It all depends on the construction type and how cut up the house is, etc. That's why bidding per hole or per square foot is silly. I do a takeoff as best I can on everything.
growler
Senior Member
- Location
- Atlanta,GA
Re: Time to Rough In & Finish Single Families
Pennylady, Are these custom homes ( you say that the homeowner buys the fixtures )? Does the 200 hrs. cover the service installation? What percentage of the 150 openings are cans, fans and floods? Does this cover doing lay-out with the homeowner? How are your crews set up ( rough & trim or one crew does it all)? What is the ratio of journeymen to helpers ( less than skilled labor)? Do you count drive time from the shop?
Are the crews working in adverse conditions ( extreme hot or cold )? Are the jobs local or do they require over an hour commute? Do the crew members take frequent pot smoking breaks ( don't laugh, this is not a joke)? Is your company set up to do quality work or what ever gets the job done ( if it passes it's great )? There are many things that can affect the speed of production . Even the amount of time the crews have worked for the company and the training they have received. I have ran jobs with pick-up crews and they never went as fast or as well as crews that have a history of working together ( people have more of an incentive if they think they will stay with a company).
Pennylady, Are these custom homes ( you say that the homeowner buys the fixtures )? Does the 200 hrs. cover the service installation? What percentage of the 150 openings are cans, fans and floods? Does this cover doing lay-out with the homeowner? How are your crews set up ( rough & trim or one crew does it all)? What is the ratio of journeymen to helpers ( less than skilled labor)? Do you count drive time from the shop?
Are the crews working in adverse conditions ( extreme hot or cold )? Are the jobs local or do they require over an hour commute? Do the crew members take frequent pot smoking breaks ( don't laugh, this is not a joke)? Is your company set up to do quality work or what ever gets the job done ( if it passes it's great )? There are many things that can affect the speed of production . Even the amount of time the crews have worked for the company and the training they have received. I have ran jobs with pick-up crews and they never went as fast or as well as crews that have a history of working together ( people have more of an incentive if they think they will stay with a company).
- Location
- Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
- Occupation
- Service Manager
Re: Time to Rough In & Finish Single Families
I'll laugh all I want, that was funny.
Re: Time to Rough In & Finish Single Families
Ok Here?s some answers to questions.
Houses / Condos are about 1500 square feet. Each house has about 150ish openings. Or about 1 opening per 7.5 square foot. All new construction with a drawing and minor changes along the way. The $45 (more for cans&fans) per opening excludes the service. We charge $1500 for a 200amp residential service and always come in on time and on budget for the service. They are above code minimum, but far from luxury. We are known for a little higher quality than our competitors. Same crew does rough in and finish. They are used to working together and work well together. The 200 hours is ?man hours? logged on the job and includes travel time of 30 minutes to the jobsite. I?d say these houses have about 3 fans and 8 cans each. No adverse conditions. Compared to our industrial jobs these little houses should be a cake walk. But they are taking forever to rough in and finish.
Ok Here?s some answers to questions.
Houses / Condos are about 1500 square feet. Each house has about 150ish openings. Or about 1 opening per 7.5 square foot. All new construction with a drawing and minor changes along the way. The $45 (more for cans&fans) per opening excludes the service. We charge $1500 for a 200amp residential service and always come in on time and on budget for the service. They are above code minimum, but far from luxury. We are known for a little higher quality than our competitors. Same crew does rough in and finish. They are used to working together and work well together. The 200 hours is ?man hours? logged on the job and includes travel time of 30 minutes to the jobsite. I?d say these houses have about 3 fans and 8 cans each. No adverse conditions. Compared to our industrial jobs these little houses should be a cake walk. But they are taking forever to rough in and finish.
mdshunk
Senior Member
- Location
- Right here.
Re: Time to Rough In & Finish Single Families
There's your answer.
You're using guys used to commercial work and putting them on a house every once in a while. Generally, nobody can wire a house slower than a guy that's used to commercial/industrial work. My background is mostly commercial service, and I seldom ever touched NM cable. When I first started wiring houses, I had a rude awakening. I sucked. I'm better now, but the differences between the two ends of the trade became immediately and painfull obvious. The pace, as well as the materials and work practices, are much different.
AH-HAH!!!
There's your answer.
You're using guys used to commercial work and putting them on a house every once in a while. Generally, nobody can wire a house slower than a guy that's used to commercial/industrial work. My background is mostly commercial service, and I seldom ever touched NM cable. When I first started wiring houses, I had a rude awakening. I sucked. I'm better now, but the differences between the two ends of the trade became immediately and painfull obvious. The pace, as well as the materials and work practices, are much different.
LarryFine
Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
- Location
- Henrico County, VA
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor
Re: Time to Rough In & Finish Single Families
Amen!!!
jimwalker
Senior Member
- Location
- TAMPA FLORIDA
Re: Time to Rough In & Finish Single Families
If they are picking up and returning your van i hope your paying them both ways.In Fl its law that they are paid from time leaving shop till returned.A journeyman use to doing romex should be average of just under 30 minutes per receptacle rough and finished.I use to rough in 15 minutes trim in under 5 but now only do commercial so would take me time to get back to doing that.Off hand i would say your just not using the right guys for the job.
If they are picking up and returning your van i hope your paying them both ways.In Fl its law that they are paid from time leaving shop till returned.A journeyman use to doing romex should be average of just under 30 minutes per receptacle rough and finished.I use to rough in 15 minutes trim in under 5 but now only do commercial so would take me time to get back to doing that.Off hand i would say your just not using the right guys for the job.
growler
Senior Member
- Location
- Atlanta,GA
Re: Time to Rough In & Finish Single Families
Having the wrong type of electricians is definitely the problem. The question is, can you teach an old dog new tricks? This is just my personal opinion but I don't think you can. I don't think that a commercial or industrial electrician is ever going to make a good residential electrician. The whole mind set is different. Commercial & industrial people pride themselves on knowledge and residential people pride themselves on speed. I don't mean to say that the residential people aren't smart or that commercial people are slow, I only mean it's not the primary motivation. I have done many residential jobs and I still think it sucks. The only pride I take in a residential job is the money I make. On a commercial or industrial job I even like for people to come by and look at my work ( I feel a certain pride of workmanship). I don't care if anyone ever sees my Romex running through holes bored in wood ( if you have seen one you have seen them all ). Since it is very expensive to try and motivate a commercial electrician with enough money to wire a houses I would think that the solution to the Penny-lady's problem is to hire a residential crew or sub out the work. ( or perhaps genetic engineering )
Having the wrong type of electricians is definitely the problem. The question is, can you teach an old dog new tricks? This is just my personal opinion but I don't think you can. I don't think that a commercial or industrial electrician is ever going to make a good residential electrician. The whole mind set is different. Commercial & industrial people pride themselves on knowledge and residential people pride themselves on speed. I don't mean to say that the residential people aren't smart or that commercial people are slow, I only mean it's not the primary motivation. I have done many residential jobs and I still think it sucks. The only pride I take in a residential job is the money I make. On a commercial or industrial job I even like for people to come by and look at my work ( I feel a certain pride of workmanship). I don't care if anyone ever sees my Romex running through holes bored in wood ( if you have seen one you have seen them all ). Since it is very expensive to try and motivate a commercial electrician with enough money to wire a houses I would think that the solution to the Penny-lady's problem is to hire a residential crew or sub out the work. ( or perhaps genetic engineering )
Re: Time to Rough In & Finish Single Families
as a sidebar, Pennylady does not seem to have this problem, but, from an inspection point of view, some of the resi jobs with the most code violations I've seen were done by industrial electricians. Not dangerous, by any means, but nowhere near code compliant. I still shudder when the homeowner tells me his buddy, who is an electricain at XYZ plant, wired the house.
It was refreshing to see your posts. As an old comm/ind electrician, my residential work, especially in terms of speed, sucked major.
as a sidebar, Pennylady does not seem to have this problem, but, from an inspection point of view, some of the resi jobs with the most code violations I've seen were done by industrial electricians. Not dangerous, by any means, but nowhere near code compliant. I still shudder when the homeowner tells me his buddy, who is an electricain at XYZ plant, wired the house.
It was refreshing to see your posts. As an old comm/ind electrician, my residential work, especially in terms of speed, sucked major.
Re: Time to Rough In & Finish Single Families
Thank You Thank You for all the help!!
Thank You Thank You for all the help!!
Very good point and very true. We much prefer to do commercial / industrial and it accounts for a much higher percentage of our business than residential. As an interesting side note on my end. I rarely have collection issues with our commercial / industrial jobs. Whereas the residential jobs are much slower pay and we've been stiffed on a few.
peter d
Senior Member
- Location
- New England
Re: Time to Rough In & Finish Single Families
I consider myself to be fotunate to be mostly trained on the residential side of things, and learning commercial and industrial work later on.
Learning new construction residential work gives any electrician a good solid foundation with the basics to move on to more challenging work if he so desires.
To make money wiring new homes, there is one key word that you must know: speed. As soon as you open the door of the truck when you pull up to the job, you hit the ground running. To do this effectively you must be totally set up to do this kind of work, and as the others have said, putting a commercial electrician on this type of job is a recipe for disaster.
That means that you must have a complete layout system, a standard and fixed method for roughing in, and a crew that is fully prepped on the methods and can perform them in a fast and efficient manner.
Others will do things differently, but for me it means laying out and marking everything, putting in every single box drilling the holes, and then the cable and staples start to fly. Boxes get made up and you're out of there until the finish.
I consider myself to be fotunate to be mostly trained on the residential side of things, and learning commercial and industrial work later on.
Learning new construction residential work gives any electrician a good solid foundation with the basics to move on to more challenging work if he so desires.
To make money wiring new homes, there is one key word that you must know: speed. As soon as you open the door of the truck when you pull up to the job, you hit the ground running. To do this effectively you must be totally set up to do this kind of work, and as the others have said, putting a commercial electrician on this type of job is a recipe for disaster.
That means that you must have a complete layout system, a standard and fixed method for roughing in, and a crew that is fully prepped on the methods and can perform them in a fast and efficient manner.
Others will do things differently, but for me it means laying out and marking everything, putting in every single box drilling the holes, and then the cable and staples start to fly. Boxes get made up and you're out of there until the finish.
Re: Time to Rough In & Finish Single Families
They might be able to do the same house faster in pipe. We never use romex. But if we tried it would take us much longer then pipe. I know we could do the same project in EMT with RMC for the service in about 100 hours. Add more for overhead service, changes, dificult fixtures, weather, scheduling problems, cluttered job site, tall cielings, or dificult fraiming.
Tom
They might be able to do the same house faster in pipe. We never use romex. But if we tried it would take us much longer then pipe. I know we could do the same project in EMT with RMC for the service in about 100 hours. Add more for overhead service, changes, dificult fixtures, weather, scheduling problems, cluttered job site, tall cielings, or dificult fraiming.
Tom
bradleyelectric
Senior Member
- Location
- forest hill, md
Re: Time to Rough In & Finish Single Families
thats funny
hardworkingstiff
Senior Member
- Location
- Wilmington, NC
Re: Time to Rough In & Finish Single Families
In the mid 70's I could rough in a 2 bedroom duplex with electric heat and window AC in one day by myself. I worked with a residential contractor for 2 weeks about 10 years ago, .... let's just say he was kind when he said "it should go a little faster than this". LOL.
I second that AMEN!!!
In the mid 70's I could rough in a 2 bedroom duplex with electric heat and window AC in one day by myself. I worked with a residential contractor for 2 weeks about 10 years ago, .... let's just say he was kind when he said "it should go a little faster than this". LOL.
LarryFine
Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
- Location
- Henrico County, VA
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor
Re: Time to Rough In & Finish Single Families
My remark was sorta aimed at one of my guys with a commercial background. :roll: He's great to put on a T&M job, though.
When I was a senior helper, another helper and I roughed a 3-BR, 2-bath split-level house in one day, including the panel.
[ January 17, 2006, 01:12 AM: Message edited by: LarryFine ]
My remark was sorta aimed at one of my guys with a commercial background. :roll: He's great to put on a T&M job, though.
When I was a senior helper, another helper and I roughed a 3-BR, 2-bath split-level house in one day, including the panel.
[ January 17, 2006, 01:12 AM: Message edited by: LarryFine ]
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