To Design, or, not to design a spray booth

[Mule]

I have a client who is installing a used industrial/commercial spray booth that will be used for spraying flammable stain onto wood products. The exp proof flourescent lights are in place and just need to be wired up, the exhaust fan is there, and has a TEFC motor outside of the duct work. They have installed a plant air line that will be used for spray gun air pressure. This air line header has a asco solenoid installed to facilitate emergency shut off in the event of a fire. They want me to do the installation but they have no other components for the fire detection/suppression emergency circuit, and they want me to "figure it out". He did say, that he thought that the emergency circuit was to be acuated by the sprinkler system which has not been installed yet. So my first response, was that I was experienced in explosion proof wiring, but I was not particulary well versed in the fire codes as they apply to spray booths. and I told him that I would dive into to it then give him a call.

Then after a few hours, I thought, "what have I got myself into" and I decided that I did not want the liability of such design, nor did I think that my liability insurance covered me for such design work. So I emailed him explaining my stand, and concerns, but I would be happy to do the installation, once he had the balance of the components and prints that were in accordance with applicable codes.

So my question is did I over react? or am I correct that I shouldnt be involved in the design as an EC installer? My insurance is for premise wiring. I dont want to do a improper installation and have some one killed or burned. Or be sued for some crazy employee, or something...

 

[mdshunk]

There's no way on God's green earth I want to be mixed up with a design/build on something that can potentially blow up. These things need to be either bought as a kit or designed by an engineer if I'm going to wire it. On a paint booth, it's plan & spec for me. Not that I couldn't make it work just the way they want it to, but I want the design responsibility on someone else's shoulders.

 

[ivsenroute]

I can only compare to our state which is an ICC code state.

1) The entire project would need to be designed by an engineer, stamped and approved by the engineer.

2) The electrical and fire protection, detection system would also have to be designed and stamped by and engineer.

3) There are other factors that come into play like type construction the project is in. Exposures nearby, firewall or fire separation distances, ventilation requirements inside and outside the booth, etc.

4) OSHA requirements?

5) Multi-use, or occupancy building?

 

[Mule]

well this is in a really small town, no inspections, no design, no planning, no permits.....But that doesnt change my liability issue IMO

 

[480sparky]

well this is in a really small town, no inspections, no design, no planning, no permits.....But that doesnt change my liability issue IMO

That would pretty much narrow down the list of defendants in the lawsuit, that's fer sure.

 

[petersonra]

Its a used existing piece of equipment. I would see if the old design documents are available. Might solve the whole problem. Most of these things are semi-kit form anyway, and the original manufacturer might well have some documentation they could send you. They may even have a kit available to make it conform to whatever standards exist today that did not exist when it was built.

You might suggest to the owner that he have someone experienced in this type of installation take a look at it. Obviously that person is going to want to be paid. The guys insurance company might be able to give him an idea on who to talk to.

I don't blame you for not wanting to be involved in something like this.

 

[Sparky555]

Call their insurance company and ask for their fire inspector (if that's what the person is called). The town might be podunk, but the insurance co probably isn't. He/she can probably set you right on the requirements. I have a relative who's career was insurance inspector. He also worked volunteer firefighter & eventually fire chief. This kind of thing was right down his alley.

 

[PCN]

well this is in a really small town, no inspections, no design, no planning, no permits.....But that doesnt change my liability issue IMO

I think your gut feeling is right on. Even if it's a small town you still want to cover your rear and have the owner have an engineer design this and put his or her stamp on it.
People are to sue happy in this day and age. You know if any goes wrong who are they going to point a finger at?

 

[hillbilly1]

Good call, if anything happened, you would be the first in line for the insurance company to sue. Unfortunate these days, even if it was engineered, and you thought it was wrong, the lawyers would still try to prove you were negligent even though you were told by the engineer that was the way to do it. Just sent back a set of engineered blueprints that called for 4-500 kcmil's and a # 6 equipment ground for a 400 amp circuit. The building inspection plan review department caught it also, along with other numerous errors.

 

[mdshunk]

Good call, if anything happened, you would be the first in line for the insurance company to sue. Unfortunate these days, even if it was engineered, and you thought it was wrong, the lawyers would still try to prove you were negligent even though you were told by the engineer that was the way to do it. Just sent back a set of engineered blueprints that called for 4-500 kcmil's and a # 6 equipment ground for a 400 amp circuit. The building inspection plan review department caught it also, along with other numerous errors.

That touches on a trend I've been noticing. I know I haven't been around as long as most guys, but the quality of the engineering seems to be going downhill as time passes. Too much cut and paste of stuff that doesn't apply, and stuff that should apply is missing. Same with architects. I've got a set of plans for a retail space fit out, and I'm up to #108 in my RFI log for those plans, and I'm still just preparing the bid. At least they get back to me quickly each time, but sheesh... For instance, the measurements on a particular detail print of a display area don't even fit on the wall they're shown on for the main print. That's pretty darned important to get right.

 

[Security101]

I agree with your concern, and I do fire systems in paint booths. I however do not design or spec equipment required as this has to be engineered by the paint booth manufacturer, approved by the AHJ (or fire marshal probably in your case) and then given to me and the electrician so we can go from there.

The electrician does the explosion proofing and install of our heat sensors providing me with a sealed set of leads for our connection outside the hazard area.

Check with the manufacturer and see if they can spec it out and get with the AHJ.

Jim

 

[PCN]

That touches on a trend I've been noticing. I know I haven't been around as long as most guys, but the quality of the engineering seems to be going downhill as time passes. Too much cut and paste of stuff that doesn't apply, and stuff that should apply is missing. Same with architects. I've got a set of plans for a retail space fit out, and I'm up to #108 in my RFI log for those plans, and I'm still just preparing the bid. At least they get back to me quickly each time, but sheesh... For instance, the measurements on a particular detail print of a display area don't even fit on the wall they're shown on for the main print. That's pretty darned important to get right.

I think your right, back in the old days when plans were hand drawn alot more thought and consideration went into every line. I'm fairly new to the world of being an electrical designer but we cut and past details everyday. It's very easy to copy in the wrong one if your not paying attention. I'm guilty of that myself.

I think as far as quality goes it's just like eveything else today; we want it faster and cheaper. At the engineering company I work for we typically have 4 weeks to design a 50k sq ft retail building with 15 or 20 panels and 500 or so branch circuits, not to mention trying to answer RFI's on live projects, site visits, (getting yelled at by electricians ).
I've worked as an electrician for many years (still do part time) and complained about many a blueprint, I feel your pain.

 

[Mule]

So here is the REST of the story on the spray booth,....
my client is the Maintenance Supervisor for this company. He is relatively new at this facility and is trying to change the culture and request better planning and design, which has been a real problem. So the person requesting this work on the spray booth, has not gone through the Maintenance dept. to get this done. This has him sorta agrevated, and I dont blame him. So they have requested this work directly to me, and it puts me in a tough spot, because I have such a big backlog already with the maintenance supervisor.

They also have a conveyor they want me to wire up, that was also pulled out of the junk heap somewhere. It has a 3ph motor on it, and they purchased a new Leeson VFD with no enclosure, no remote control device, or enclosure. Which also agrevated the Maintenance supervisor because they are trying to standardize on VFD's. They want me to hook into a existing 3ph disconect that is fed with "SO" straight up to a 480 bus duc ......I said "no way" I'll have to re-do that.......It's a mess, but I dont think the conveyor is such a liability as the spray booth issue, so I'll piece it together for them.....They havent a clue what they are going to use for set point control ie: 4-20ma, 1-5v, or what....

 

[masterinbama]

Get their insurance people and the fire marshal involved. Most of the ones I have done get an Ansul system similar to a commercial kitchen hood installed in them.

 

[Mule]

Get their insurance people and the fire marshal involved. Most of the ones I have done get an Ansul system similar to a commercial kitchen hood installed in them.

In general cases, I would agree, but I assure you, calling the fire marshall or their insurance company would be a great way to loose my account.

 

[mdshunk]

In general cases, I would agree, but I assure you, calling the fire marshall or their insurance company would be a great way to loose my account.

You bet. Probably true for most of us. I privately wonder if all the people who post, "call so-and-so" would ever do that themselves. I have one I'm working on now where the common area fire alarm system in 5 different apartment buildings arranged as a campus (systems installed in the late 60's) are non-functional. I can't find out independantly if these buildings were required to have them in the first place, therefore they need to work, or whether they were just a nice accessory that no longer functions. I'm stuck, because I can't ask anyone without opening up a can of worms and losing a nice account.

 

[Fulthrotl]

Then after a few hours, I thought, "what have I got myself into" and I decided that I did not want the liability of such design, nor did I think that my liability insurance covered me for such design work. So I emailed him explaining my stand, and concerns, but I would be happy to do the installation, once he had the balance of the components and prints that were in accordance with applicable codes.

bingo. good choice, unless of course unlimited criminal and financial liability
appeals to you....

in california, we have so many attorneys that we have taken to using them
for parking lot bollards around transformers.... just bury them up to their
knees in wet concrete on 16" centers around the transformer, and when
someone backs up, they scream and file a lawsuit.....

 

[Mule]

You bet. Probably true for most of us. I privately wonder if all the people who post, "call so-and-so" would ever do that themselves. I have one I'm working on now where the common area fire alarm system in 5 different apartment buildings arranged as a campus (systems installed in the late 60's) are non-functional. I can't find out independantly if these buildings were required to have them in the first place, therefore they need to work, or whether they were just a nice accessory that no longer functions. I'm stuck, because I can't ask anyone without opening up a can of worms and losing a nice account.

Yep, I have a hard enough time, as alot of my clients know that I used to be the inspector. So I have to tell them, that "I wear a different hat now". When I see a violation, Its my duty to tell the client, and suggest a fix, but never never do I call and turn them in. OR AT LEAST WHEN THEY ARE STILL MY CLIENT

 

[growler]

I privately wonder if all the people who post, "call so-and-so" would ever do that themselves.

Yes, I would call the Fire Marshals office. I would much rather lose an account than end up in jail. They don't pay worth a darn in there, I here it's like 25 cents an hour.

Calling the Fire Marshals office here is no big deal, so long as you don't have a complaint about their services they are very nice and helpful.

As far as calling their insuance company, they are going to find out about the installed equipment anyway so what's the big deal there. As a matter of fact Mule will probably want to check with his insurance company to make sure he is covered for doing work in Hazardous locations ( for liability). They may want some sort of balloon coverage for the unexpected.

The last time I was involved with a major painting operation ( rehab at railroad) it was in 1992 and they had just killed a man due to rigged electrical. There was an explosion and a young man of 23 years with a wife and child was dead. I herd their lawyers got them out of any criminal charges but I wouldn't want to be a contractor that was resposible for something like that. I could get messy real quick.

 

[GUNNING]

OK .. here's what ya do. Call the AHJ. Have a quiet talk with them. They will either throw you to the dogs or red tag the booth for no engineering. Either way its not your fault. If they pass the paint booth, its their headache. If they make the owner go get engineering its a change order. IF the owner insists you finish its a change order for engineering. Any of these ideas will make you money in the end.
As for attorneys, they are expensive. Do the right thing without malice and the only thing they can prove is you did the right thing. OH yea, buy a shredder and a hold harmless agreement.