As politely as I can say it, and with all due respect, "you guys dont get it"...this is a HICK town...no AHJ.....no red tags....no engineer...no change orders.....it will not be inspected at all.............They will figure it out, and when they produce what I need, I'll hook it up...
To Design, or, not to design a spray booth
- Thread starter Mule
- Start date
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As politely as I can say it, and with all due respect, "you guys dont get it"...this is a HICK town...no AHJ.....no red tags....no engineer...no change orders.....it will not be inspected at all.............They will figure it out, and when they produce what I need, I'll hook it up...
Okie Sparky
Member
- Location
- NW Oklahoma
Even in HICK town, Oklahoma there is a AHJ. He would be the state fire marshal in your area. Call down to the State Fire Marshal's office and request the the fire marshal in your district make a visit.
I did this on a job where there was no engineer, no designer, no nothing, just a redneck saying, "Here's what we want." I'll give you a little info. on this man's business. He designed and developed a propane system to go on over the road rigs to improve fuel mileage, emissions, etc., etc. This system has a valve that regulates the amount of propane to the air intake based on turbo boost pressure. When he installs a system on a truck he "fine tunes" this valve on each truck specific to each truck by putting the truck on a chassis dyno and running the truck at different speeds and loads on the dyno with the valve on a test bench and propane running to the valve he can adjust the valve until he gets peak performance out of the truck. The test bench is in a little room with the computer equipment for the dyno and there are propane lines that are active while this is all in operation. The dyno equipment is in NEMA 4 enclosures but they have vent holes in them for cooling proposes. These equipment enclosures are mounted below the test bench, at less than 2'. They have heat sinks, and relays and electronic circuit boards in them.
The journeyman that I had doing the project and I couldn't decide if this would be a classified location or not. So between the two of us we decided it would be best to involve the state fire marshal. We looked at the liability to our company if something were to happen. So we just very nicely explained to this man want the problem was what the liability to his company was (as he had already had trouble with his neighbors) as he lets his customers come into the shop area of his business (he confers with them while setting the perimeters on the valve). They also "drive" the truck while it is on the dyno. He was very open to having the state fire marshal come, his only comment was, "What will this cost me". When the Fire Marshal came out he said he would rather come before hand to know what was going on than to come post accident. He also said that if we/business man would do all that he asked then he would stand up in court for us if it ever came to that, but if we didn't........
So Mule, I think what I would do is have a talk with the maintenance supervisor and maybe his boss. Explain your position thoroughly, tell them of their liability exposure (to their employees or possibly neighbors). Tell them of your liability exposure (they may not care). But if you get the fire marshal involved now he will be on your (their) side if something catastrophic happens. Because if something catastrophic happens somebody will sue everybody involved, you, them and anybody else they can think of.
Hope this helps.
Security101
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern Indiana
I understand your concern, however I have been "post calling" for 30+ years and have an excellent rapport with the inspectors/fire marshal(s) etc. They do not "ding my customers" or take the pre call to be a chance to ruin one of my contracts.
I don't "turn in" my customers, I work with all involved to devise a plan of attack, and by doing so there are no surprises during or after the project.
This also means though that if you are a new customer and I feel your asking me to do less that code type work - I don't need to "go to the AHJ" - it is your problem and you can complete the job without me! I will not put myself in harms way (financial/jail time) or put someone else in harms way because a customer wants to save a buck or cut some corner. I know what's right and pick my jobs accordingly.
When you plan ahead, and have a working relationship with your local authorities, you should have no problems with real customers.
Now back to your job...
I feel for ya, may the force be with you!:wink:
Jim
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The solenoid is tied in w/ a limit switch on the door(s) ,open the door while the painter is shooting parts & you have one POed painter when the air supply gets cut off, at least that is the way one was I did in the last century was.
1.1 million BTU gas heater, w/ a 30K BTU pilot light, glad I did not have to pay the gas bill.
mdshunk
Senior Member
- Location
- Right here.
To put it another way, when the Air Supply gets cut off, would you agree that the painter is All Out Of Love?The solenoid is tied in w/ a limit switch on the door(s) ,open the door while the painter is shooting parts & you have one POed painter when the air supply gets cut off, at least that is the way one was I did in the last century was.
ivsenroute
Senior Member
- Location
- Florida
Mule, it is becoming apparent that you are waiting for someone to tell you what you want to hear. Wait long enough and you will. Sounds like your mind is already made up and you need to convince your inner self which questioned this from the beginning hence your reason for posting in the first place.
I fully understand what you guys are suggesting, remember I spent 5 years in such offices dealing with required stamped engineering doc's, AHJ's, fire marshalls, inspections, and the complete approval process. But what my original post asked was rather if I had over reacted or not. Im smart enough to know when I see the documents I need to complete the job, and Im not proceeding untill some one shows me some doc's that are legitamite... and I am NOT calling the officials on this issue and endangering my account.
If the client wants to call them that's their business. I have drawn the line in the sand stating what I need, now its up to them.....
If the client wants to call them that's their business. I have drawn the line in the sand stating what I need, now its up to them.....
"they have no other components for the fire detection/suppression emergency circuit, and they want me to "figure it out"."
Sure you can do the job, all you will need to do it right is hire a PE to design the project and than your ready to install it, sounds like they are looking someone fresh off the boat, whoever does this work, will assume a bit of liability, and that is ok as long as they are prepaired to pay, if they don't want to do the work right then let someone else have the problems, and exposure, you can enjoy watching the demo work, after the fire trucks leave.
Sure you can do the job, all you will need to do it right is hire a PE to design the project and than your ready to install it, sounds like they are looking someone fresh off the boat, whoever does this work, will assume a bit of liability, and that is ok as long as they are prepaired to pay, if they don't want to do the work right then let someone else have the problems, and exposure, you can enjoy watching the demo work, after the fire trucks leave.
Arent you jumping to conclusions? They havent even had time to respond to my request. They have other "like" installations in this facility that "might" have needed legitamate docs, or they might consult other corp resources which is California.........patiences brother
GUNNING
Senior Member
- Location
- Gainesville, Florida
hmmm
hmmm
OK. I get it no AHJ. What they want is someone "less expensive" than a new paint booth to put this animal together. Luckily they found you. If I got roped into this I would be callin around for information, writting up a set of plans, getting as educated as I could about the project. The things they dont want to pay for in the real world. Make sure you get yours so that if the hammer falls you have a cushion to fall on. Sounds like a real brain teaser. The plans will ensure a long service relationship. Try to find a factory rep that can help with the "what they are doing now", and what to look for answers. Good luck.
hmmm
OK. I get it no AHJ. What they want is someone "less expensive" than a new paint booth to put this animal together. Luckily they found you. If I got roped into this I would be callin around for information, writting up a set of plans, getting as educated as I could about the project. The things they dont want to pay for in the real world. Make sure you get yours so that if the hammer falls you have a cushion to fall on. Sounds like a real brain teaser. The plans will ensure a long service relationship. Try to find a factory rep that can help with the "what they are doing now", and what to look for answers. Good luck.
gadfly56
Senior Member
- Location
- New Jersey
- Occupation
- Professional Engineer, Fire & Life Safety
If you really want to move forward with this project, you'll need to bring in an engineer (as others have suggested) or find a company that can offer the expertise you need and have them act as your subs. Grab a copy of NFPA 33: Standard for Spray Application Using Flammable or Combustible Materials for starters. Maybe the original spray booth manufacturer will help out. Definitely get the sprinkler company involved. They will likely also do special suppression systems. You would most likely need a dry chemical suppression system (Kidde, Pyro-Chem, Ansul, Amerex). All kinds of interlocks are involved: fire shut down, ventilation, fire alarm, fuel supply, air to spray guns, etc. This would not be my choice for a "learn by doing" project. Good luck, whatever you decide.
With all due respect, everyone wants me to be the GC, and I dont care to be in that capacity. When I first posted this thread, I cared, but now...
When the missing components materialize, I will be most happy to do the electrical installation according to code, but until then, I could care less, because I'm not going to take the liability, nor argue with a low budget management team trying to sell a huge engineering cost that they are not going to pay for. This bunch doesnt even want to take proper channels with'in their own organization, so why should I think that they will except the cost of engineering....I'm really busy, and dont have to time to screw with it, nor do I want to.Stepping back and watching this management team, is the ultimate multi-tasking get-r-done mentallity. They are a bunch or 25 year old managers that most probably dont make 35k annually. Which is, on a positive note, it's amazing what some folks can get done with a hard will. But in this case, for this small mom and pop electrical business, I dont want the headache or liability...now Im repeating myself...
I HATE that!!
I had a cut/paste job last month that showed a EGC in the overhead riser with the service conductors. Does anyone, anywhere do that?
They are alwys doing that "no emt, no set screw connector, no MC" BS too.
The latest cut and pasted light pole base I saw showed 20" of #4 copper coiled up at the bottom of the hole.
Greg Swartz
Senior Member
- Location
- Colorado Springs, Colorado
I'm pretty confident Colorado would follow these same guidelines...
Anytime you pull a permit for non-residential, there better be plans involved... and since there are plans... that means an engineer is going to get paid to change / review / stamp...
But there's always that little line on the prints somewhere: Subject to field verification
petersonra
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern illinois
- Occupation
- Semi-retired engineer
I don't think you should go behind your client's back, but you should just tell them your concerns and who they might contact to get it resolved. make it clear you don't feel you are qualified to make the determinations as to just what is appropriate.
They may just tell you to call whoever you need to.
They may just tell you to call whoever you need to.
I know your just trying to help, But ...........
1) Im NOT going behind anyones back, and I dont understand how you came up with that.
2) I have told them my concerns
3) And my qualifications dont have anything to do it, IM NOT AN ENGINEER and I wont accept the liability....Its up to them get that resolved. Not mine Im not a GC...as earlier stated , they have engineering resources in other corporate locations, they just need to utilize it.
4) I dont want them to tell me to call someone as Ive already stated
Thanks but Ive just took another job today, which officially ties this mom and pop shop up for the next 3 months and we just dont have time to be fiddle'n with side line obstacles. We are now refering all calls to other local EC's.
Well they were drug across the carpet for not going through maintenance and engineering. So after the smoke cleared, they hired the previous controls company that installed other paint hoods in this facility, and they are doing the installation. $10,000 smackers.....YAHOO !!
GUNNING
Senior Member
- Location
- Gainesville, Florida
karma
karma
ATA BOY! Karma will keep ya in the clear every time!
karma
ATA BOY! Karma will keep ya in the clear every time!
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