To many kitchen circuits

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evandriel

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We recently did a house where the inspector required only 8 devices per circuit, each GFI in every bath on their own individual circuit, only two loads per GFI in the garage, garage opener on dedicated circuit, and only one load per GFI in the kitchen.

Most of this I can live with but two items I have a problem with and would like to get some opinions.

1) What would be the problem with having the required two circuits in the kitchen with each circuit feeding three GFI's. This would still meet his requirements of only 8 per circuit and to my understanding stay within code.

2) Does a door opener really need to have it's own circuit?

Thanks for any and all input.
 
Re: To many kitchen circuits

Unless you have local ordnances requiring all those things the inspector is mistaken on all counts.
 
Re: To many kitchen circuits

I agree. The inspector is doing design work, not inspection work. You are describing "what the inspector requires," not "what the code requires."
 
Re: To many kitchen circuits

The door opener on a circuit I can see, but one load per GFI in the kitchen and two in the garage?? Is he serious?
He has obviously never been on one of my jobs. That would require 6 small appliance circuits alone in many of the kitchens I do.
 
Re: To many kitchen circuits

and only one load per GFI in the kitchen
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So tell him there are no loads on the counters and you wont have to have any SA circuits. :cool:
 
Re: To many kitchen circuits

These are all city ordinances that were adopted when this guy took over the position. Does this mean I have no grounds to argue any of these items with him? I don't mind doing what he's asking but would like to only pull my two circuits (or more) to feed the receptacles in the kitchen and another one or two circuits for the garage. Any fuel you could provide me would be appreciated.
 
Re: To many kitchen circuits

You mentioned these are city ordinances. What city? Are these ordinances still in effect, if so, they are required to be in writing. If they are actual ordinances, you should ask for a copy, and then it would be interesting to see some of these ordinances posted.

NYC USED to have similar code rules, but has in the last two years adopted the NEC with 323 amendments.
 
Re: To many kitchen circuits

Most jurisdictions have local amendments to the NEC, in Indiana, they are statewide. We also have deleted some parts of the Code such as Article 547 and 600. The local county or city adopt these by ordinance but they are not required to adopt them. The local cities or counties are not permitted to add their own amendments to the Code.

The intent is to point out that other places have their own ways of doing things, you have to check it out. It can not be just the inspector's rules, they have to be part of the law and in writing. :D
 
Re: To many kitchen circuits

Man, that really blows. If it's adopted, it gospel, as far as I know. It'd really be better if it was just the inspector being a knob.

1) What would be the problem with having the required two circuits in the kitchen with each circuit feeding three GFI's. This would still meet his requirements of only 8 per circuit and to my understanding stay within code.
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I'm getting used to some pretty small houses, so that kind of thing wouldn't jar my world too much. Depending on the size of your house, I'd get the Dining/Nook Outlet circuit involved in some of the action on the counters. I normally pull a Range Side GFI, Sink Side GFI, Dining/Fridge circuit. So maybe if you hit half your dining on one SA circuit and ran to the counters, and then mirror that, put some counterspace on after the Fridge, something. Man, that sucks.

Then again, my buddy from Mass used to alternate SA#1, SA#2, SA#1 along the countertops and that kinda blew my mind. The whole under-slab multiplex SE runs still have my mind spinning!
 
Re: To many kitchen circuits

As far as making the garage door opener on its own circuit, I did it this way for years because I was told to by the jman on the jobs when I was an apprentice. Sometimes I still do, but sometimes I put it with the garage outlets. My Genie Stealth door openers operate at 2 amps per the nameplate on the opener. In my opinion there is no code requirement or real reason to make these appliances dedicated.
 
Re: To many kitchen circuits

These are all on paper. The only part that is not is running a circuit for each GFI / Load in the Kitchen. We were just told to do this by the inspector so it "accurately conforms to his requirement of only one GFI one Load".

As for the door opener. The arguement I've always heard was that it was a motor and per 430.?? (can't recall right now exact article) it should be on a dedicated circuit.

[ December 06, 2004, 06:41 AM: Message edited by: evandriel ]
 
Re: To many kitchen circuits

Please elaborate on the "one GFCI/one Load." (ie. SA#1 with a GFCI duplex, SA#2 ditto and that's it?) I am curious to learn what the inspector's 'requirement' is all about? Is there a panel max out load issue???
rbj, Seattle
 
Re: To many kitchen circuits

Originally posted by evandriel:
These are all on paper. The only part that is not is running a circuit for each GFI / Load in the Kitchen. We were just told to do this by the inspector so it "accurately conforms to his requirement of only one GFI one Load".
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Then don't do it. Take your GFI, look at the instructions, show the inpsector. I'm willing to bet that even on the diagram on the box shows a couple of load outlets. Much less the words and the UL listing! You can say with authority that half of God's green Earth puts more than 1 1oad receptacle after a GFI. The other half don't have electricity.

The inspector in this case is way over his authority, and in this particular case I--even I--would go over his head. Catch that, Scott? :)

Motors aren't my strong suit, but it'd imagine that 430.24 applies to this, which states that you circuit suppling this motor and other loads shall be sized at least 125% of the FLC of the motor. Is your 15 amp circuit covering this, I'd imagine so. If he says anything else, egg his car.
 
Re: To many kitchen circuits

Surely he means one GFCI feeding downstream duplexes on each SA otherwise there is a code violation in the making as far as the counter spacing distance. [210.52(C)(1)]
 
Re: To many kitchen circuits

evandriel,
In my opinion the door opener is covered by Article 422, not 430.
Don
 
Re: To many kitchen circuits

220.4(A) Motor-Operated and Combination Loads. Where a circuit supplies only motor-operated loads, Article 430 shall apply. Where a circuit supplies only air-conditioning equipment, refrigerating equipment, or both, Article 440 shall apply. For circuits supplying loads consisting of motor-operated utilization equipment that is fastened in place and has a motor larger than hp in combination with other loads, the total computed load shall be based on 125 percent of the largest motor load plus the sum of the other loads.

you could connect this to a general lighting circuit, per 210.53 as long as the utilization equipment does not exceed 50 percent of the load
 
Re: To many kitchen circuits

I am a new subscriber and wanted to explain how the code goes here in Toledo Ohio. As far as the kitchen,they go by a wattage schedule. This requires that every 2 recepticles in kitchen must be on a circuit(1000w per recpticle).Each microwave seperate circuit.dishwasher and disposal must be on same circuit or if only one is installed,it must be on own circuit.Each dining room or dinette recpt. is rated at 1000w.
You may jump from the kitchen and pick up a dinnette or dining recpt. if its on line side of GFI.Fridge is 1000w also.
This is Toledos code and they stick to it......no overiding it!
Hope i was of some help........this forum sure has been of help to me.
 
Re: To many kitchen circuits

Originally posted by georgestolz:
The inspector in this case is way over his authority, and in this particular case I--even I--would go over his head. Catch that, Scott? :)
Click to expand...
:D
 
Re: To many kitchen circuits

Jakeo, how does this ten amp per receptacle rule work out in relation to article 220? That looks just plain excessive.

In Millbrae, Ca. if your home needs $1000 of repair you will be ordered by the building department to install fire sprinklers in the garage. Because of the difference in what everything costs from one place to the next an example of $1000 worth of work might be a new eight foot long counter top. Actually you'd be lucky to get it at that.

San mateo requires closet sprinklers.
 
Re: To many kitchen circuits

We are allowed to have 12 bedroom plugs on one 15 anp circuit.All cieling lights are to be rated at 150amps.There are differant ratings for diff. rooms.
 
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