Tomorrow's call

[sd4524]

I am going on a service call tomorrow where the customer lives in a 5 unit apt building. The customer has a 2 bedroom and claims to have an average bill of $250- $300 per month. The other tenants he says pay around 30-$35 per month. I am going to look for the obvious... turn off all breakers and see if the meter spins, see if laundry or lighting or water heater is on this apt meter.
What else would be good to check? Would a loose main lug or main breaker connection cause this to happen?

 

[sandking]

Bad meter? Call the utility company too.

 

[tkb]

Look for the grow lights for the "Cash Crop".
Maybe a neighbor tapped in his panel.

Take the receptacles apart on the dividing walls and look for a tap.
Check the bedroom walls, could be a grow room on the other side.
The apartments should be mirror layouts.
Check loads first, so you don't tip off the grower.

 

[Volta]

Bad meter? Call the utility company too.

And even if it's not bad, sometimes a misread meter can cause a month or more shoot up past the average.

 

[Cow]

Last call I had like that, something was wrong with the HVAC system. The AC unit was cycling on/off every 2-3 minutes. They had a $700 bill that month for that one...yikes!

 

[readydave8]

water heater leak can strongly affect lite bill too

 

[ptonsparky]

Went to a house this spring that had hi billing. I figured it would take about 60 amp draw. He thought he had gas heat. He did, but that one was not working. The electric one was working fine at about 61 amps with the blower return door off sucking unheated crawl space air. Make sure a/c units are clean with proper air flow.

 

[renosteinke]

I'll second the water heater as a prime suspect. A bad element can leak current through the water, into the grounded piping- even when the heater is 'off.'

 

[sd4524]

I made the service call today. 5 units total and one house meter. Each unit has a 50 amp main and 4 circuits total. All major appliances are gas including the house water heater and laundry. I didn't find anything suspicious at all. I pulled the meter, checked that the meter was the right one on the utility bill. With all breakers on, I had like 2-3 amps on each phase. We unplugged everything in house and had 0 amps.
Here is the only thing I found- It is a pushmatic panel which means that the breakers screw into the bus. The main breaker fell right out when I had the cover off and was turning it off and on. That means that the connection was loose on one side of the main breaker. Very loose. It also had burn mark right where the breaker screws in.
Could the loose connection create more resistance and thus a higher bill? Thats all I have right now. We did sign the tenants up online so that they can monitor usage and will keep track of what time of day the most power is used.

 

[George Stolz]

Here is the only thing I found- It is a pushmatic panel which means that the breakers screw into the bus. The main breaker fell right out when I had the cover off and was turning it off and on. That means that the connection was loose on one side of the main breaker. Very loose. It also had burn mark right where the breaker screws in.

I think $250 worth of a screw heating would have burned the place down already. I doubt you've found it yet.

 

[gary]

We did sign the tenants up online so that they can monitor usage and will keep track of what time of day the most power is used.

That is a clever use of smart meter technology! I hope it provides some clues as to what is going on and hope you will keep us informed.

 

[readydave8]

I'll second the water heater as a prime suspect. A bad element can leak current through the water, into the grounded piping- even when the heater is 'off.'

yes. but twice I've seen an actual water leak, both times in places that didn't show up (once it was a buried hot water line to a remote room, the other was crawl space that evidently had good drainage), obviously ran up lite bill.

But 2 or 3 amps observed probably eliminateds this possibility.

 

[GUNNING]

time to rewire the building ... ca CHING!$!

time to rewire the building ... ca CHING!$!

Look for security lighting on his panel.
Look for a heating pad plugged in or grow lights either his or his neighbors.
Window shaker he only uses all night long turned to 65 degrees. A fan that is running but not.
Badly adjusted meter, use a hair dryer and calculate the turns with known watts and times.
I always keep my customers talking, they will tell you right where the problem is. With that kind of discrepancy sounds like a dead motor. Pushmatics mean non grounded outlets and if its a dead short it might not trip but burn baby burn... give them a price for replacing outlets with GFCI's and a new panel with CAFCI's. :jawdrop:

Neighbors grow lights... any wires burned up besides the main breaker? Meg out the service wires from the meter to the main. Those old TW rubber wires will leak.

 

[kwired]

I'll second the water heater as a prime suspect. A bad element can leak current through the water, into the grounded piping- even when the heater is 'off.'

I won't disagree that some current leakage can occur, but enough to raise the monthly bill $200+? You are looking at least 2000 kWh for the month, depends on rates. A leaking hot water faucet is much more likely to do this.

Look for security lighting on his panel.
Look for a heating pad plugged in or grow lights either his or his neighbors.
Window shaker he only uses all night long turned to 65 degrees. A fan that is running but not.
Badly adjusted meter, use a hair dryer and calculate the turns with known watts and times.
I always keep my customers talking, they will tell you right where the problem is. With that kind of discrepancy sounds like a dead motor. Pushmatics mean non grounded outlets and if its a dead short it might not trip but burn baby burn... give them a price for replacing outlets with GFCI's and a new panel with CAFCI's. :jawdrop:

Neighbors grow lights... any wires burned up besides the main breaker? Meg out the service wires from the meter to the main. Those old TW rubber wires will leak.

Again, are they going to leak 2000 or more kWh per month, and if they do how many months can they do this before something either heats up enough to start a fire or the leakage path burns itself out?

 

[Fulthrotl]

I made the service call today. 5 units total and one house meter. Each unit has a 50 amp main and 4 circuits total. All major appliances are gas including the house water heater and laundry. I didn't find anything suspicious at all. I pulled the meter, checked that the meter was the right one on the utility bill. With all breakers on, I had like 2-3 amps on each phase. We unplugged everything in house and had 0 amps.
Here is the only thing I found- It is a pushmatic panel which means that the breakers screw into the bus. The main breaker fell right out when I had the cover off and was turning it off and on. That means that the connection was loose on one side of the main breaker. Very loose. It also had burn mark right where the breaker screws in.
Could the loose connection create more resistance and thus a higher bill? Thats all I have right now. We did sign the tenants up online so that they can monitor usage and will keep track of what time of day the most power is used.

a loose connection will generate heat, but will also cause a voltage drop to the connected
loads, reducing their consumption, especially with incandescent loads. it balances out with
most resistive loads. motor loads will draw more with the voltage drop, but again, the refer
is about the biggest load, unless they have AC.

unless the voltage has a parallel path to ground, which will be just another load. i have seen
wires shorted in a conduit, bleeding current to ground, but not pulling enough to trip the breaker.
12 amps load on something 24/7 adds up...

assuming you were there during the day, if you had a grower tapped in, you'd a picked it up...
those guys set their timers to run during the day.... i remember one, who had a farm in his garage attic,
and the timer had them on at night, and the light leaks coming out here and there looked like close
encounters of the third kind... you could see it driving by at night

my vote is common area lighting on a time switch.

something i discovered in a rental unit i occupied a long time ago, was that the hot water on the
unit and the laundry area hot water were cross connected, in a wall somewhere.... didn't know
until after 6 months, when the pilot went out on the laundry room water heater, and my shower
was cool on full hot.

where are you gonna find that cross connect? geez.. and i wasn't gonna pay for half of everyone's
hot water on 5 coin op machines..... so i shut off the water heater and turned my pilot off.

my ex lived there after we separated and divorced for almost 15 years total.... every so often the
pilot would go out on the common hot water heater, and i'd go relight it, so everyone had hot
water for those coin op machines.... i *am* thoughtful...

 

[kwired]

a loose connection will generate heat, but will also cause a voltage drop to the connected
loads, reducing their consumption, especially with incandescent loads. it balances out with
most resistive loads. motor loads will draw more with the voltage drop, but again, the refer
is about the biggest load, unless they have AC.

unless the voltage has a parallel path to ground, which will be just another load. i have seen
wires shorted in a conduit, bleeding current to ground, but not pulling enough to trip the breaker.
12 amps load on something 24/7 adds up...

..

Resistive load will draw less current with a weak connection someplace, motors will draw more than usual. It is likely the motor will trip overload device if the problem is very significant at all, so you will still have some indication that something is wrong.

Bleeding 12 amps of current to ground has to heat something up someplace. That is a typical portable space heater load. It will either continue to be hot or burn itself out, either way there will be some symptom besides just a high electric bill.

 

[renosteinke]

FWIW, our friends at Fieldpiece (they make the meters for Ideal, and others) also offer a recording unit for about $200. Used together with their accessory heads, it would allow you to monitor current overnight, possibly identifying the cause.

 

[Fulthrotl]

Resistive load will draw less current with a weak connection someplace, motors will draw more than usual. It is likely the motor will trip overload device if the problem is very significant at all, so you will still have some indication that something is wrong.

Bleeding 12 amps of current to ground has to heat something up someplace. That is a typical portable space heater load. It will either continue to be hot or burn itself out, either way there will be some symptom besides just a high electric bill.

it did, i'm sure.. where it was happening was in a 1/2" rigid conduit buried in the ground... with the load disconnected,
and nothing but a #12 wire in a pipe, hooked to a breaker, it was drawing 12 amps...i'm sure that pipe under the paving
around the pool was quite toasty. ;-)

i'm guessing the amount of current flow varied based on the moisture in the soil... we have very corrosive soil here...
i've seen 1/2" rigid condiuts feeding a pool pump just dissolved at the soil line... just two wires (no ground wire used)
coming out of the dirt into the rusty 12" piece of pipe that was left above ground... the pipe in the soil was just very
red dirt around the two wires.

 

[kwired]

it did, i'm sure.. where it was happening was in a 1/2" rigid conduit buried in the ground... with the load disconnected,
and nothing but a #12 wire in a pipe, hooked to a breaker, it was drawing 12 amps...i'm sure that pipe under the paving
around the pool was quite toasty. ;-)

i'm guessing the amount of current flow varied based on the moisture in the soil... we have very corrosive soil here...
i've seen 1/2" rigid condiuts feeding a pool pump just dissolved at the soil line... just two wires (no ground wire used)
coming out of the dirt into the rusty 12" piece of pipe that was left above ground... the pipe in the soil was just very
red dirt around the two wires.

Apparently the RMC was not grounded or maybe was no longer continuous so part of it was not grounded anymore. That could be a case where you will pump power into the earth, but usually something will burn out, dry out or something and the amount of current flow will diminish. How much (bare) conductor was in contact with the RMC? One little nick is not likely to last for too long before connection to the RMC is interrupted somehow. Water filled raceway will conduct better, I guess if it boils the water away it very well could condense while still in raceway and you never really lose the water in the raceway.

 

[Fulthrotl]

Apparently the RMC was not grounded or maybe was no longer continuous so part of it was not grounded anymore. That could be a case where you will pump power into the earth, but usually something will burn out, dry out or something and the amount of current flow will diminish. How much (bare) conductor was in contact with the RMC? One little nick is not likely to last for too long before connection to the RMC is interrupted somehow. Water filled raceway will conduct better, I guess if it boils the water away it very well could condense while still in raceway and you never really lose the water in the raceway.

like the song says... working on mysteries without any clues.... i had one here nine months or so ago,
with mystery pool lights that would trip a 20 amp breaker without tripping the gfci, it was weird.... and
it went on a couple pages here, with people ending up saying... that *can't* happen.... i put it up here
cause there will be someone who's seen most everything on here.... either light worked, drew 4.5 amps,
both together tripped a 20 amp breaker, not tripping the gfci. there was also a difference of potential
between the pool water in the jacuzzi, and the pool, with either light on. not so, with the light off.

all i know is i disconnected the circuit from the panel, and disconnected the light cords from the branch
circuit wiring in the pool light j boxes..... i wouldn't replace the 120 vac wet niche fixtures with anything
other than 12 volt led.... sorry... get some one else... i won't do it.

today i did the get paid floating in the pool fishing in new lights dance.... 2 brand new pentair v5 led lights.
repulled all the wire back to the switch.... gfci feeds a 150 watt 120/12 volt xfmr, secondary is fused, light
switch operates 12 volts, not 120 volts. and the secondary 12 volts is an isolated circuit. and it's 12 volts.
that's as safe as i can make it.

those lights are awfully expensive, and i know 120 vac wet niche luminaries are industry standard, but these
put out the same footcandles as those 500 watt lamps, and draw 45 watts instead..... the original lamps
drew more power than the pool pump.

and i never will know what was going on with those other lamps.