TR height requirement

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We are currently finishing up a house that was wired under the '05 code. I'm installing all kinds of non-TR receptacles. I feel like such a rebel (even though it's pefectly legit.) :D
 
iwire said:
I see it just as Scott does, all areas 'mentioned' by 210.52, not all receptacles required by 210.52.

It says what it says in plain English and does not say what it does not say. :D
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Are outlets mentioned in 210.52 other than to say besides those installed above 5'6". I get what you are saying but I don't see it that way. Why have a TR for a garage door opener? Anyway, I am not convinced but I don't really care a whole lot. :D
 
peter d said:
We are currently finishing up a house that was wired under the '05 code. I'm installing all kinds of non-TR receptacles. I feel like such a rebel (even though it's pefectly legit.) :D
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I have 3 -- 6000 sq. foot house in the same boat- no additional arc faults either. Homeowners don't want them either. Go figure.
 
peter d said:
We are currently finishing up a house that was wired under the '05 code. I'm installing all kinds of non-TR receptacles. I feel like such a rebel (even though it's pefectly legit.) :D
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I always knew you hated children. :mad: :grin:
 
steelersman said:
not even the outlet in the garage ceiling for the opener?
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Can't you just picture the little kid climbing on top of Mom's SUV to hide his tooth in one of those wipers so no one would find it, and he would collect the $ in the morning? Nobody's going to steal little Mikey's tooth, by golly:roll::D
 
I am really surprised at how many areas in this country don't use the 2008 Code.

Plain and simple - if it is in a house use TR receptacles for all 15amp or 20amp 120v circuits, use arc faults for all 120v 15amp or 20amp non gfci protected circuits (except bathroom and kitchen). Use a GFCI on the garage door openers, use a WR, TR GFCI receptacle with a bubble cover for outside receptacles.
that is it. Well that isn't all of it but those are the rules for 2008.

2011 is coming soon and some are still on 2005 code - hard to believe.
 
CopperTone said:
Plain and simple - if it is in a house use TR receptacles for all 15amp or 20amp 120v circuits,
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Not exactly but close-- crawl space does not require TR as far as I can tell nor does the attic recep. if you put one there.

use arc faults for all 120v 15amp or 20amp non gfci protected circuits (except bathroom and kitchen).
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Arc fault is not required in attics and I would venture to say not in laundry rooms , unless one can define a similar area. :smile:

Use a GFCI on the garage door openers, use a WR, TR GFCI receptacle with a bubble cover for outside receptacles, that is it. Well that isn't all of it but those are the rules for 2008.
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Not all outdoor receptacles need a bubble cover.

Yes, I am nit picking, sorry. :D
 
TR's are ridiculous.....whatever happened to evolution, survival of the fittest? However I don't care enough to go on a rant......
 
it's easier when actually wiring a house not to nit pick. I found you dumb it up for homeowners and put the gfi outside so when it trips they can find it and reset it themselves.
How many times do you use a dedicated circuit for the attic or basement? most times you are using the rest of a circuit to pick up a light or 2 and the rest of the circuit needs arc fault protection. I don't even carry non TR residential receptacles in our truck anymore.

Nit picking can get annoying - make it easier for yourself.

Now, when I wire a kitchen I am sure to run a dedicated lighting circuit to avoid an arc fault breaker. with all the lighting options I sell - they need a dedicated lighting circuit anyway.
 
mweaver said:
This means that ALL 15 or 20 amp 125 volt receptacles in:

Kitchens, Pantries, Breakfast rooms, Dining rooms and similar areas, Living rooms, Parlors, Libraries, Dens, Sunrooms, Bedrooms, Recreation rooms, & similar areas, Bathrooms, Outdoors, Balconies, Decks, Porches, Laundry Areas, Basements, Garages (attached or detached) , Hallways (...I think that is all of them ...)
mweaver
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My NEC says, "...or similar room or area of dwelling units..."

I wonder if the intent was to be all inclusive, or to exclude dissimilar rooms and areas. I think maybe the latter.

The list of rooms given are areas of, let's say... "hanging out" around the house. These are the areas that children are likely to be left unattended. Areas such as Laundry, and Bathrooms seem to me to be a bit different (maybe it's just me).

The other areas you mentioned, Outdoors, Balconies, Decks, Porches, Basements, Garages (attached or detached) , and Hallways are areas that I think may have indeed been intended to be included because of the likelihood of "children at play". On the other hand, most of these are areas that would have GFCI, so I dunno if that would have dissuadedthe CMP from them or not.

I know that the Handbook notes are for reference, but the note under 400.6 says that this is an update from the previous code for pediatric areas to protect children, hence the "Do it for the children" mindset.

I would also include attics and crawlspaces as other areas that would/could be excluded from this.


On a side note, I don't want to carry around any more receptacles than i have to either. However, the TR at Big Orange are more than double the cost of the norm. For me, I don't care about that, but some will.
 
Cycotcskir,

You stated: ?My NEC says, "...or similar room or area of dwelling units..."
Mine says this to, under Section 210.52(A), but Section 210.52 runs all the way to page 54 in my book, and includes other ?areas? not addressed in subsection (A)? such as hallways in Section 210.52(H).


Let me clarify my understanding of this requirement and hopefully this will be beneficial (This is how it has been explained to me and I do know that many in both enforcement and contracting agree with this).

Section 406.11 is actually pretty clear (for me?) in its language. ?The intent of the CMP which wrote it may never actually be known, but we do know what they wrote (which is the only thing relevant for me today?):

406.11 Tamper-Resistant Receptacles in Dwelling Units. In all areas specified in 210.52, all 125-volt, 15- and 20-ampere receptacles shall be listed tamper resistant receptacles.

For me: Within the simplicity of this statement, it mandates that ALL 125-volt, 15- and 20-ampere receptacles shall be listed tamper resistant receptacles (regardless of intended use and regardless of accessibility) if they are installed within an ?area? which is specified within Section 210.52.

For me: Section 406.11 actually tells me which 125-volt, 15- and 20-ampere receptacles it is referring to, and it is ALL of them (in the areas specified within 210.52). This means all said receptacles, regardless of intended use and regardless of accessibility, shall be TR.
For me, this is what it says?

The question now is: what areas are specified in Section 210.52 ?? While Section 210.52 is a sprawling section (page 52 to pg 54) it is a simple search to find all of the ?areas? denoted within the section, and they are (as I find them):

Kitchens, Pantries, Breakfast rooms, Dining rooms and similar areas, Living rooms, Parlors, Libraries, Dens, Sunrooms, Bedrooms, Recreation rooms, & similar areas, Bathrooms, Outdoors, Balconies, Decks, Porches, Laundry Areas, Basements, Garages (attached or detached) , Hallways (...I think that is all of them ... but you should actually check me on this ?)

Attics and crawlspaces (as you stated) are not denoted (or referenced) in Section 210.52 and do not require compliance with Section 406.11 (TRs not needed)?

Why is this level if distinction important? Agreed, many don't really care, but... For some, the ability to utilize existing receptacle stock (in the few ramaining areas) is an issue, so where TR is mandated and where it is not can be important (for some)? It also often comes down to enforcement (which is important for many...), because if you did not install a TR device for a receptacle installed behind the dishwasher or under the sink in the kitchen, it is a (crystal clear) violation of the 08 NEC and may require your remediation of said violation at a latter date?

Do both of the receptacles I noted above really ?need? to be TR from a practical or logical sense ?? Did the CMP intend they be TR ?? Who knows? For me (and for many), it doesn?t really matter? It is what they mandated? and it is, what it is? until the 2011 edition comes out or until a particular jurisdiction says it ain?t so (within their jurisdiction).

I do hope this is helpful?
mweaver
 
hehe, partial oversight on my part. The "My NEC" was a kidding phrase. I should've used a smile or something.

I agree, it does seem to lean more towards "everything and all", rather than "except these and those".
 
daleuger said:
TR's are ridiculous.....whatever happened to evolution, survival of the fittest? However I don't care enough to go on a rant......
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Tell that to the kids that have been injured. :rolleyes:

Thanks for sparing us the rant. again :rolleyes:

Edit: Actually I'd like to hear the rant on why TR receptacles are so "Ridiculous".
 
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