aelectricalman
Senior Member
- Location
- KY
Does anyone have a trenching clause incase you've priced a job and started to dig and you've hit large rocks or things which you could not foresee. If so, would anyone be so kind as to share it? Thank you.
Trenching Clause
- Thread starter aelectricalman
- Start date
- Status
Re: Trenching Clause
The only clause I have in my proposal is as follows:
(a) No Compaction or Third Party Testing.
(b) No Select Fill
All this means is that I put the same dirt back in the trench that I took out and pack it down by running over it with the trencher tires.
As far as hitting underground boulders, tree stumps, and so forth - that's my problem, that's why I pack enough time for the unforseen. I've even started trenching jobs inside the city where there was an old asphalt parking lot 12" below the dirt that had been there for years. Had to get a bigger and more powerful piece of equipment to cut the trench to the depth that I needed of 24".
If you do come across problems of this sort, you can have a talk with your GC and your Inspector and see if some sort of concession can be made. That's about the best advise I can give at this time.
One other thing - always contact Dig Safe and have all local Utility Companies come out flag their undergounds services before you trench. This way, if you hit some UG utility, you won't be responsible for paying for the repairs. If they don't flag it, and you hit it - you'll be exornerated because you called for them to do so. Keep all of your documents until the job is finished and then on file with the rest of your job paperwork for at least a year.
The only clause I have in my proposal is as follows:
(a) No Compaction or Third Party Testing.
(b) No Select Fill
All this means is that I put the same dirt back in the trench that I took out and pack it down by running over it with the trencher tires.
As far as hitting underground boulders, tree stumps, and so forth - that's my problem, that's why I pack enough time for the unforseen. I've even started trenching jobs inside the city where there was an old asphalt parking lot 12" below the dirt that had been there for years. Had to get a bigger and more powerful piece of equipment to cut the trench to the depth that I needed of 24".
If you do come across problems of this sort, you can have a talk with your GC and your Inspector and see if some sort of concession can be made. That's about the best advise I can give at this time.
One other thing - always contact Dig Safe and have all local Utility Companies come out flag their undergounds services before you trench. This way, if you hit some UG utility, you won't be responsible for paying for the repairs. If they don't flag it, and you hit it - you'll be exornerated because you called for them to do so. Keep all of your documents until the job is finished and then on file with the rest of your job paperwork for at least a year.
aelectricalman
Senior Member
- Location
- KY
Re: Trenching Clause
Trenching Clause
Although we can take every effort to dig a service ditch, it is impossible to know exactly what lies in the ground below. Because of this problem, we can not guarantee a ditch be dug with our ditch digging equipment. Larger equipment my have to be employed to complete the job. The price of this equipment, if needed, would be added to the cost of digging your service ditch. This is a rare occurrence, but does happen. At this point the cost will be accessed and the option to continue will be discussed with the Homeowner/Homebuilder. Additional costs will include only the cost of the necessary backhoe equipment.
Also, when trenching your electrical service, we refill only the dirt which was removed. No other dirt can or will be imported to the site. We will compact the dirt only by means of the equipment for which we used to dig. It is your responsibility to have proper grading and compacting on all holes dug before using this land as driveways, walkway or other load supported land. Thank you.
[ February 20, 2005, 08:45 PM: Message edited by: aelectricalman ]
Trenching Clause
Although we can take every effort to dig a service ditch, it is impossible to know exactly what lies in the ground below. Because of this problem, we can not guarantee a ditch be dug with our ditch digging equipment. Larger equipment my have to be employed to complete the job. The price of this equipment, if needed, would be added to the cost of digging your service ditch. This is a rare occurrence, but does happen. At this point the cost will be accessed and the option to continue will be discussed with the Homeowner/Homebuilder. Additional costs will include only the cost of the necessary backhoe equipment.
Also, when trenching your electrical service, we refill only the dirt which was removed. No other dirt can or will be imported to the site. We will compact the dirt only by means of the equipment for which we used to dig. It is your responsibility to have proper grading and compacting on all holes dug before using this land as driveways, walkway or other load supported land. Thank you.
[ February 20, 2005, 08:45 PM: Message edited by: aelectricalman ]
hbiss
EC, New York NEC: 2017
- Location
- Little Falls, New York NEC: 2017
- Occupation
- EC
Re: Trenching Clause
I think the bigger question here is how many EC's will want to take on the responsibility or even want to get involved with it. This comes under the heading of excavating and would add $$$ to your insurance premiums among other things and I really don't think it falls under an EC's job description any more than painting and patching.
I know I have done it myself on one or two occasions when my back was up against the wall but I would much rather, and strongly suggest that it be subbed out to someone who has the experience and resources or made the GC's responsibility.
Many times excavating can be non eventful be just as many times things can turn ugly. A few weeks ago a water crew broke a gas main with their backhoe while they were trying to get at the water main. They evacuated half the town and shut down adjacent highways and train service until the gas company cut off the leak. These guys are pretty good and I'm sure they had Dig Safe mark the area out but despite the best of efforts s**t happens. I'm sure glad I had nothing to do with that one!
Both of you mention that you will not backfill with select fill. The POCO here requires a certain amount of sand both under and on top of all UG services. Required or not, it is never proper to just push the soil back in with possible rock and debris. This from someone who has buried many miles of communications cable.
-Hal
I think the bigger question here is how many EC's will want to take on the responsibility or even want to get involved with it. This comes under the heading of excavating and would add $$$ to your insurance premiums among other things and I really don't think it falls under an EC's job description any more than painting and patching.
I know I have done it myself on one or two occasions when my back was up against the wall but I would much rather, and strongly suggest that it be subbed out to someone who has the experience and resources or made the GC's responsibility.
Many times excavating can be non eventful be just as many times things can turn ugly. A few weeks ago a water crew broke a gas main with their backhoe while they were trying to get at the water main. They evacuated half the town and shut down adjacent highways and train service until the gas company cut off the leak. These guys are pretty good and I'm sure they had Dig Safe mark the area out but despite the best of efforts s**t happens. I'm sure glad I had nothing to do with that one!
Both of you mention that you will not backfill with select fill. The POCO here requires a certain amount of sand both under and on top of all UG services. Required or not, it is never proper to just push the soil back in with possible rock and debris. This from someone who has buried many miles of communications cable.
-Hal
coppertreeelectric
Senior Member
Re: Trenching Clause
I'm with hbiss, For the most part we leave it to the customer to get the digging done.
I'm with hbiss, For the most part we leave it to the customer to get the digging done.
highkvoltage
Senior Member
Re: Trenching Clause
I have done alot of trenching. I used to run a crew that installed highway lighting systems. I totally agree with hbiss, sub it out.
[ February 20, 2005, 08:21 PM: Message edited by: highkvoltage ]
I have done alot of trenching. I used to run a crew that installed highway lighting systems. I totally agree with hbiss, sub it out.
[ February 20, 2005, 08:21 PM: Message edited by: highkvoltage ]
aelectricalman
Senior Member
- Location
- KY
Re: Trenching Clause
I do sub it out. When I bid a job, I bid the whole thing and then I sub what I don't do. You're all focusing on the wrong part of the question, but thanks anyway. I have this clause because I think it improper for the homeowner to have to deal with a part of my job that is required to have a fully functioning electric system. Also, I think it is in my best intrest to have a policy set in place, so that when the situation arises, I will not lose profit when my diggers say "We'll, I had to bring in the arsenal". I asked this question as a way to find out more from those who do dig, not the other way around. But thanks anyhow. Between the customer and I, my diggers do not come into play. All negotiations are between my customers and my self, so this limits my loses in a worse case scenario. Thanks all.
Didn't realize this sounded so harsh so I editted it to put this note in here. Sorry. I was just wanting to see some of the things people have ran into with their digging. Unforeseen things one may have to eat if not careful. Thanks
[ February 20, 2005, 09:10 PM: Message edited by: aelectricalman ]
I do sub it out. When I bid a job, I bid the whole thing and then I sub what I don't do. You're all focusing on the wrong part of the question, but thanks anyway. I have this clause because I think it improper for the homeowner to have to deal with a part of my job that is required to have a fully functioning electric system. Also, I think it is in my best intrest to have a policy set in place, so that when the situation arises, I will not lose profit when my diggers say "We'll, I had to bring in the arsenal". I asked this question as a way to find out more from those who do dig, not the other way around. But thanks anyhow. Between the customer and I, my diggers do not come into play. All negotiations are between my customers and my self, so this limits my loses in a worse case scenario. Thanks all.
Didn't realize this sounded so harsh so I editted it to put this note in here. Sorry. I was just wanting to see some of the things people have ran into with their digging. Unforeseen things one may have to eat if not careful. Thanks
[ February 20, 2005, 09:10 PM: Message edited by: aelectricalman ]
- Location
- Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
- Occupation
- Hospital Master Electrician
Re: Trenching Clause
I'd add locates to your clause:
That's a very good policy, IMO. Much easier to market your services if you are the one stop shop for an underground, especially if you separate your bid into "Excavation price" and "Electrical price." That way the customer can see exactly how much they're saving by digging their own trench, or can justify to themselves that you are worth it to just take care of the whole deal. I like the way you're thinking, Ace.
I'd add locates to your clause:
If you hit something, at least there'll be some mud in the water if push comes to shove.
electricmanscott
Senior Member
- Location
- Boston, MA
- Occupation
- Massachusetts Master Electrician, one man show.
Re: Trenching Clause
I like Georges point about locating underground utilities. In MA the excavator has to contact Dig Safe by law before any digging is done. You can't put that on a customer.
My policy "Call me when you get the hole dug"
[ February 21, 2005, 09:15 AM: Message edited by: electricmanscott ]
What about the additional labor and time involved?
I'd remove the word "Can" from this because other dirt actually can be brought to the site. And as pointed out might actually have to be brought in for proper backfill.
I like Georges point about locating underground utilities. In MA the excavator has to contact Dig Safe by law before any digging is done. You can't put that on a customer.
My policy "Call me when you get the hole dug"
[ February 21, 2005, 09:15 AM: Message edited by: electricmanscott ]
hbiss
EC, New York NEC: 2017
- Location
- Little Falls, New York NEC: 2017
- Occupation
- EC
Re: Trenching Clause
Sorry that I didn't answer your question directly, your post and the one following made no mention of sub-contracting the excavation work.
When you sub this out you should have the terms already spelled out by the excavation company in the quote they provided to you. THEY should have already addressed these issues (if the haven't put everything in writing they should do so) and you only have to "cut and paste" their terms into your contract with the customer.
-Hal
Sorry that I didn't answer your question directly, your post and the one following made no mention of sub-contracting the excavation work.
When you sub this out you should have the terms already spelled out by the excavation company in the quote they provided to you. THEY should have already addressed these issues (if the haven't put everything in writing they should do so) and you only have to "cut and paste" their terms into your contract with the customer.
-Hal
aelectricalman
Senior Member
- Location
- KY
Re: Trenching Clause
Im sorry, I wasn't very clear on that one was I. I do like your idea about the "Cut and Paste" and I do like georges idea as well. Thanks for everything.
Im sorry, I wasn't very clear on that one was I. I do like your idea about the "Cut and Paste" and I do like georges idea as well. Thanks for everything.
kentirwin
Senior Member
- Location
- Norfolk, VA
Re: Trenching Clause
Over the years I've done alot of trenching always in the employ of someone else. What fond memories! Have run into rocks, old footings, utilities that were improperly marked, water table 2" under the surface, old pavement, old demolition debris, solidly frozen fill - about everything you can think of except unmarked graves. To the best of my knowledge none of my employers had any type of clause regarding unexpected subterrainean discovery. :roll:
Over the years I've done alot of trenching always in the employ of someone else. What fond memories! Have run into rocks, old footings, utilities that were improperly marked, water table 2" under the surface, old pavement, old demolition debris, solidly frozen fill - about everything you can think of except unmarked graves. To the best of my knowledge none of my employers had any type of clause regarding unexpected subterrainean discovery. :roll:
petersonra
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern illinois
- Occupation
- Semi-retired engineer
Re: Trenching Clause
A guy I used to work with decided to build a deck. Being a law abiding citizen he went to see if he needed a permit. Because it was going to be attached to the back of his house, he did indeed need a permit. So he took one out. Big mistake (the answer is don't attach it to your house and you don't need a permit - at least in this area).
Holes for the concrete had to be 42" deep. He starts digging. Five of the six holes - lots of work but no real problem.
Hole six has big problem. Gets down about 40 inches and hits a BIG rock. Calls building dept. Inspector jack@$$ comes out and won't approve.
HO digs hole out so it is over 3 feet in diameter looking for edge of boulder. No edge found. Inspector says 42" or no approve.
Eventual answer? Adding a couple of inches of top soil around the hole so hole is now 42" deep. Inspector signs form.
A guy I used to work with decided to build a deck. Being a law abiding citizen he went to see if he needed a permit. Because it was going to be attached to the back of his house, he did indeed need a permit. So he took one out. Big mistake (the answer is don't attach it to your house and you don't need a permit - at least in this area).
Holes for the concrete had to be 42" deep. He starts digging. Five of the six holes - lots of work but no real problem.
Hole six has big problem. Gets down about 40 inches and hits a BIG rock. Calls building dept. Inspector jack@$$ comes out and won't approve.
HO digs hole out so it is over 3 feet in diameter looking for edge of boulder. No edge found. Inspector says 42" or no approve.
Eventual answer? Adding a couple of inches of top soil around the hole so hole is now 42" deep. Inspector signs form.
hbiss
EC, New York NEC: 2017
- Location
- Little Falls, New York NEC: 2017
- Occupation
- EC
Re: Trenching Clause
To the best of my knowledge none of my employers had any type of clause regarding unexpected subterrainean discovery.
Either they gave a high price or know the area real well.
Most good excavation companies have the "artillery" to handle most circumstances and that would be included in the price. But when it is discovered after work has begun that something like serious rock breaking or blasting is needed an extra cost naturally would be incurred.
The excavation company needs to have a clause in their contract to cover such eventualities and alow them to pass these additional costs on as an extra or they will have to eat the costs themselves.
-Hal
To the best of my knowledge none of my employers had any type of clause regarding unexpected subterrainean discovery.
Either they gave a high price or know the area real well.
Most good excavation companies have the "artillery" to handle most circumstances and that would be included in the price. But when it is discovered after work has begun that something like serious rock breaking or blasting is needed an extra cost naturally would be incurred.
The excavation company needs to have a clause in their contract to cover such eventualities and alow them to pass these additional costs on as an extra or they will have to eat the costs themselves.
-Hal
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