Tripped Mains

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HotConductor

Senior Member
Location
Philadelphia
I have a customer(convenience store) that had a power outage over the weekend. When my service tech arrived all the mains in the load centers had tripped. The store has a three phase service and a single phase service and both services had tripped mains. The common link would be the primary but shouldn't the primary fuses or fuse trip before a service main?

Any insight would be appreciated.
 

ron

Senior Member
What is the normal everyday load as compared to the main size?
If there was an outage and the loads in the shop are close to the ratings of the mains, then the simultaneous inrush of motors/compressors when power was restored, may have tripped them.
 

480sparky

Senior Member
Location
Iowegia
I agree with ron.

All the rtus, coolers, freezers.... motors in general.... all starting up at once (plus all the lighting) is probably the culprit.
 

arossi

Member
Maybe the voltage dropped so low your amp draw went sky high and tripped the mains? I also see the inrush. Maybe you lost a phase? Have seen a bad bus bar connection do this.
 

zog

Senior Member
Location
Charlotte, NC
I have a customer(convenience store) that had a power outage over the weekend. When my service tech arrived all the mains in the load centers had tripped. The store has a three phase service and a single phase service and both services had tripped mains. The common link would be the primary but shouldn't the primary fuses or fuse trip before a service main?

Any insight would be appreciated.

Sounds like a coordination issue. This should never happen, have anymore info like breaker settings, etc..?
 

HotConductor

Senior Member
Location
Philadelphia
Ok I'm going there tomorrow to check loads and ratings on the mains. This chain of stores is notorious for adding loads without worrying about upgrading services. Maybe I can some more work out of it.:smile::smile::smile:
 

HotConductor

Senior Member
Location
Philadelphia
I went back to the store and checked the loads on all five panels. The highest reading on any phase was 49 amps. Obviuosly I know this was just a simple ten second reading but I really don't think was an inrush problem. The one employee I interviewed who was there said they smelled smoke for a while coming from the electrical room. Then they heard a sizzle and a pop and all the store lights went out(single phase panel). The coolers(3 ph.) stayed on for about 5 minutes and then they shut off. The result was five panels with tripped mains on two seperate services.

Both single phase panels appear to have failing mains- there is noticeable heat marks on the links connecting the main breaker to the main lugs. I also heard some intermittent sizzle coming from one while I was there. All the panels are "daisy chain" grounded to each other and then to c/w and g/r. I'm thinking there was a ground fault somewhere on the system that caused this but I am really scratching my head on this one.
 

mxslick

Senior Member
Location
SE Idaho
Rut-ro, Rastro...

Rut-ro, Rastro...

The one employee I interviewed who was there said they smelled smoke for a while coming from the electrical room. Then they heard a sizzle and a pop and all the store lights went out(single phase panel).

Um, that is a sign of some serious trouble..that and:

there is noticeable heat marks on the links connecting the main breaker to the main lugs. I also heard some intermittent sizzle coming from one while I was there.

You need to replace those mains NOW before they completely burn up and cause an outage..or worse. As long as the main lugs are ok just replace the links and breakers.

Check ALL lugs and feeder connections too...

Anytime smoke is detected in an electrical room there has been an arc, overheating or meltdown somewhere..dig deeper and you'll find something burnt or flashed over.

As for the original problem, the tripped mains, the problem was most likely caused by the inrush from all those coolers and loads coming back on..remember that a utility outage, especially when caused by a fault on their system, will not come up cleanly, there will be multiple sags and/or surges as the fault clears or attempts to clear.

Can you get any pics of the panels involved?
 

arossi

Member
Oh Boy

Oh Boy

I agree w/ slick, you probably have at least one and maybe more damaged connections in those panels. I have used one of those digital thermometers to help locate the problem (if you don't feel like sticking those hands of yours in a now dangerous panel to feel the conductors). Chances are you have a bad connection on the main coming in somewhere. I would advise the emloyees at this location to stay out and away from that equipment.
 

brian john

Senior Member
Location
Leesburg, VA
I agree w/ slick, you probably have at least one and maybe more damaged connections in those panels. I have used one of those digital thermometers to help locate the problem (if you don't feel like sticking those hands of yours in a now dangerous panel to feel the conductors). Chances are you have a bad connection on the main coming in somewhere. I would advise the employees at this location to stay out and away from that equipment.

Rather than shooting in the dark with suggestions why not perform the proper test and actually determine what is wrong?
 

broadgage

Senior Member
Location
London, England
The tripping of the main on restoration of utility power, can be due to inrush currents of motors starting, as others suggest.
Another reason can be a lot of thermostaticly controled water heaters, hot beverage machines and so on.
Under normal conditions the average load of such appliances can be suprisingly small, since they cycle on/off and only use power briefly once warmed up.

After a shutdown though, all such appliances will draw full load current until the water/space/coffee is heated.
The load can easily exceed the service.

This occured recently at a building I maintain.
Service is 200 amp 3 phase 4 wire 230/400 volts.
Normal load is about 120/150 amps per phase.

Following a utility failure the 200 amp fuses opened on 2 phases, no fault was ever located.
I suspect that the problem was the 28 yes 28! electric water heaters each 12 amp at 230 volts.
With 14 water heaters on each of two phases, the load whilst re-heating from cold would be about 170 amps, that would not leave much for the rest of the building.
 

mxslick

Senior Member
Location
SE Idaho
Rather than shooting in the dark with suggestions why not perform the proper test and actually determine what is wrong?

That's what we're suggesting....re-read our posts again and then maybe you can also contribute a suggestion or two as to the tests that need to be done. :roll:

The OP admitted he was a bit lost or unsure what to do next...

Hot Conductor said:
I'm thinking there was a ground fault somewhere on the system that caused this but I am really scratching my head on this one.
 

HotConductor

Senior Member
Location
Philadelphia
If the damage wasn't obvious I would be doing a shutdown and meggering the panel bus bars and main with 1000vdc. I am just not convinced this was an inrush problem because all the mains tripped. I've seen stores with panels that had much higher loads and have never seen tripped mains like this one.
 

brian john

Senior Member
Location
Leesburg, VA
1. Fall of potential test.
2. Thermal inspection. (Not necessarily an IR)
3. Recording amp meter.
4. A complete visual inspection.
5. EPM (electrical preventative maintenance)

Step two Megger
In lieu of high current test as few have this equipment replacement of CBs

That'll get you started.
 

arossi

Member
Rather than shooting in the dark with suggestions why not perform the proper test and actually determine what is wrong?

That's why I suggested the digital thermometer. I found a bad connection on the buss where a 400 amp breaker was bolted on (original installer cross threaded a bolt on to the buss) it took this problem nearly 40 years to occur. My suggestion came purely out of personal experience. His symptoms sounded very similar to the same one's described which led to me locating this problem.
 
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