Troubleshooting Today

Status
Not open for further replies.
J

jmellc

Senior Member
Location
Durham, NC
Occupation
Facility Maintenance Tech. Licensed Electrician
Went to a neighbor's house today to check out flickering lights. I expected to find bad splices & backstabs all around. That has often been the case. I haven't yet moved things to get up to the lights, been working the switchboxes and panel. I found no bad splices, did see a few stabs and changed them, but still flickering lights. Mainly kitchen and they do it worse when microwave or dryer are running. More than just the quick flicker we sometimes see. Sort of up and down flickering. Incoming voltage is 124 A-ground and 119 B-ground, 248 A-B. High normal and normal. Outdoor GE meter/panel combo and transfer switch to generator. 100 amp breaker to indoor panel, GE again. Checked all line and neutral connections. Could be the 100 amp subfeed breaker is starting to weaken but I hate to replace that and it not be the issue. But so far, it is my number one guess. Could be a weak link in the chain from outdoors to indoors.

Opinions?
 
Are the lights newer cheap LED. Some cheap LEDs flicker a lot, especially on dimmers. If it's not the LEDs themselves it's usually a neutral connection somewhere. I had an issue recently where lights would flicker anytime the ceiling fan would turn on at a customers house. All connections were good. Replaced LED bulbs with a different brand and all flickering went away.
 
jmellc said:
Went to a neighbor's house today to check out flickering lights. I expected to find bad splices & backstabs all around. That has often been the case. I haven't yet moved things to get up to the lights, been working the switchboxes and panel. I found no bad splices, did see a few stabs and changed them, but still flickering lights. Mainly kitchen and they do it worse when microwave or dryer are running. More than just the quick flicker we sometimes see. Sort of up and down flickering. Incoming voltage is 124 A-ground and 119 B-ground, 248 A-B. High normal and normal. Outdoor GE meter/panel combo and transfer switch to generator. 100 amp breaker to indoor panel, GE again. Checked all line and neutral connections. Could be the 100 amp subfeed breaker is starting to weaken but I hate to replace that and it not be the issue. But so far, it is my number one guess. Could be a weak link in the chain from outdoors to indoors.

Opinions?
Click to expand...
Before throwing parts at it, do a fall of potential test on the breaker with a full load. That will give you a good indication of wether the breaker is bad or not. Same with the transferswitch.
 
SSDriver said:
Are the lights newer cheap LED. Some cheap LEDs flicker a lot, especially on dimmers. If it's not the LEDs themselves it's usually a neutral connection somewhere. I had an issue recently where lights would flicker anytime the ceiling fan would turn on at a customers house. All connections were good. Replaced LED bulbs with a different brand and all flickering went away.
Click to expand...

His voltage measurements point towards a wiring problem.
 
Had a similar problem a while back where running the washer the lights would flicker in a couple of rooms. After I had checked everything that I could think of, I called the POCO. They found a bad connection on their end.
 
Helping My Neighbors - Which is a good Christian thing to do.
I tried that when I first went into contracting.
Neighbor rings my doorbell at 2:00 am ... their furnace stopped working.
 
jmellc said:
Opinions?
Click to expand...
Any time one circuit affects another like that, the problem is almost always where they have parts in common, i.e., in or ahead of the panel, such as the service. Opening device boxes is time-consuming and rarely productive.

Especially look for one line-to-neutral voltage to rise with a load on the other line. This is a time when you want to use a voltmeter instead of a solenoid tester for troubleshooting, because you want to know actual voltages.
 
I suggest trying at least one incandescent bulb to see how and/or if it flickers. I think incandescents are a more reliable indicator of a bad connection somewhere than LEDs which are sensitive to other things like electrical noise.

Were the factory conductors between the meter and the panel of the combo intercepted to put in a service rated transfer switch? If so, the connections added in the field for this might have an issue. Just a guess.
 
LarryFine said:
Any time one circuit affects another like that, the problem is almost always where they have parts in common, i.e., in or ahead of the panel, such as the service. Opening device boxes is time-consuming and rarely productive.

Especially look for one line-to-neutral voltage to rise with a load on the other line. This is a time when you want to use a voltmeter instead of a solenoid tester for troubleshooting, because you want to know actual voltages.
Click to expand...
I have often found bad splices in switchboxes, especially neutrals. Knowing many were 4-5 wire splices, I suspected a better than even chance of a few pulled from the wirenut. But splices were pretty well made. I used to find several on a circuit sometimes.

I'm calling POCO tomorrow and asking them to check their connection to meter base. I checked everywhere but their incoming. I haven't been in touch with POCO in awhile and not sure if they still allow us to cut seals to get into it. I have cut many but last few years, I checked with them 2-3 times a year to be sure it was still OK. But it's and everchanging world now too.
 
SSDriver said:
Are the lights newer cheap LED. Some cheap LEDs flicker a lot, especially on dimmers. If it's not the LEDs themselves it's usually a neutral connection somewhere. I had an issue recently where lights would flicker anytime the ceiling fan would turn on at a customers house. All connections were good. Replaced LED bulbs with a different brand and all flickering went away.
Click to expand...
Didn't think of LED's. I haven't seen much issue with them except flickering at end of life. I'll check that out too.
 
jmellc said:
I hate to replace that and it not be the issue. But so far, it is my number one guess. Could be a weak link in the chain from outdoors to indoors.
Click to expand...
Respectfully mentioning .. first of all don't guess. Evaluate the issue to the point of isolating the problemed area, from there you can isolate the wiring involved even more in which eventually leads you to a very small area were the issue resides. flickering conditions are almost always a contact point.

Did you say all lights flicker or 1-2 branches.
 
jmellc said:
Didn't think of LED's. I haven't seen much issue with them except flickering at end of life. I'll check that out too.
Click to expand...
A cousin had this happening in his house, the Living room ceiling fan and a Bath room. I get there and at any given time they start to flicker so I proceed to trouble shoot fixtures and take fan completely apart to check all connections, nothing there. To make a long trouble shooting story short, turned out to be the same as SSDriver had, changed cheap Utilitech lamps to Phillips and no more problem.
 
jmellc said:
Went to a neighbor's house today to check out flickering lights. I expected to find bad splices & backstabs all around. That has often been the case. I haven't yet moved things to get up to the lights, been working the switchboxes and panel. I found no bad splices, did see a few stabs and changed them, but still flickering lights. Mainly kitchen and they do it worse when microwave or dryer are running. More than just the quick flicker we sometimes see. Sort of up and down flickering. Incoming voltage is 124 A-ground and 119 B-ground, 248 A-B. High normal and normal. Outdoor GE meter/panel combo and transfer switch to generator. 100 amp breaker to indoor panel, GE again. Checked all line and neutral connections. Could be the 100 amp subfeed breaker is starting to weaken but I hate to replace that and it not be the issue. But so far, it is my number one guess. Could be a weak link in the chain from outdoors to indoors.

Opinions?
Click to expand...
Have trouble shoot flickering lights in homes several times. First thing I ask the person is to please write down every luminare that is flickering then I see if they are are in one just one circuit breaker. A couple if times the problem was where the overhead service cable was spliced to ultility wires. Also had a burnt wire inside meter can causing the problem. If it's only one circuit breaker I attach a meter that records maximum & lowest voltage readings and turn every luminare on feed from that breaker. If voltage stays constant ( plus or minus two or three volts ) then problem is downstream of circuit breaker. Was always either a bad splice but more likely a loose wire on a receptacle or toggle switch. Horrible stab in connections are a big problem and wish instead of the NEC just making stab in holes small to only accept #14 wire should outlaw them. Wish I had a dollar every time I removed a device that used stab in for connecting wires fall out while gently pulling device out of a wall case. I also ask the person if anybody did any recent electrical work even just replacing a luminare then look there first. Worst part people would ask for an estimate and told them that's impossible on troubleshooting but told them how much I charge per hour.
 
garbo said:
Worst part people would ask for an estimate and told them that's impossible on troubleshooting but told them how much I charge per hour.
Click to expand...
That happens to me on occasion. I tell them I can only give a repair estimate if they can tell the cause.
 
garbo said:
Have trouble shoot flickering lights in homes several times. First thing I ask the person is to please write down every luminare that is flickering then I see if they are are in one just one circuit breaker. A couple if times the problem was where the overhead service cable was spliced to ultility wires. Also had a burnt wire inside meter can causing the problem. If it's only one circuit breaker I attach a meter that records maximum & lowest voltage readings and turn every luminare on feed from that breaker. If voltage stays constant ( plus or minus two or three volts ) then problem is downstream of circuit breaker. Was always either a bad splice but more likely a loose wire on a receptacle or toggle switch. Horrible stab in connections are a big problem and wish instead of the NEC just making stab in holes small to only accept #14 wire should outlaw them. Wish I had a dollar every time I removed a device that used stab in for connecting wires fall out while gently pulling device out of a wall case. I also ask the person if anybody did any recent electrical work even just replacing a luminare then look there first. Worst part people would ask for an estimate and told them that's impossible on troubleshooting but told them how much I charge per hour.
Click to expand...
LarryFine said:
That happens to me on occasion. I tell them I can only give a repair estimate if they can tell the cause.
Click to expand...
Had a lady call once and ask if I gave free estimates. I told her if it was a new project I do. She told me she wanted a fuse panel replaced with a breaker panel and she wanted me to come and give an estimate. I told her I would. She then said " When you come for the estimate, I also want you to check some things that are not working and give me an estimate for that too". I told her that would involve work and I would have to charge her for a service call. She said, "You just told me you gave free estimates"! :rolleyes:
 
Little Bill said:
I told her that would involve work and I would have to charge her for a service call. She said, "You just told me you gave free estimates"! :rolleyes:
Click to expand...
garbo said:
Worst part people would ask for an estimate and told them that's impossible on troubleshooting but told them how much I charge per hour.
Click to expand...
It's a vicious circle.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top