Trying to get 120/240v with no high leg

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hillbilly1

Senior Member
Location
North Georgia mountains
Occupation
Owner/electrical contractor
Have a lot of 240 volt full delta with all three pots the same size on farms where motor loads are the majority of the load.

They still do open delta for maybe 50 hp or less when it is in remote area and cost less to run two phases and neutral for primary. A few existing 75 and 100 HP irrigation wells on open delta, but really won't ever see a new one anymore, they want to run all three primary lines for those and will usually be 480/277Y.
Yes, I can see that for that purpose. Most of the delta’s around here are convenience stores or small industrial complexes. Our farms are too small for irrigation. Majority of the loads are single phase with some three phase loads here. I had one customer take out
the three phase at his warehouse, and just used the single phase loads. The local poco has much better rates for single phase KWH than three phase. All he had was lighting and a few receptacles, no A/C.
 
To be fair, old parts of both San Francisco and Oakland seem to have a lot of 240/120 high-leg delta, but probably not on services installed in the last 50? years. (The Electric Rule No. 2 book doesn't say that 240/120, 4-wire is limited availability, so maybe you can still order it; not sure why anyone would.)
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
To be fair, old parts of both San Francisco and Oakland seem to have a lot of 240/120 high-leg delta, but probably not on services installed in the last 50? years. (The Electric Rule No. 2 book doesn't say that 240/120, 4-wire is limited availability, so maybe you can still order it; not sure why anyone would.)
Because you have a majority of load being 120/240 single phase but have that one or two items that are three phase. If less than ~10 hp probably still best to find a single phase version, but maybe you have a single 25 hp motor load for some special equipment, or larger HVAC system
 

gar

Senior Member
Location
Ann Arbor, Michigan
Occupation
EE
210622-0956 EDT

Zalkon:

I really do not understand what you are really asking in post #1.

Virtually all commercial power generated in the US is 3 phase at the point of origin. This is stepped up to a higher voltage for distribution. Then back down to a lower user level. At the user level it will be either a wye or delta. How this is broken up at the user level can be of several forms.

At my home the primary distribution is a three wire delta source. There is no neutral on the poles. Back at the substation is it really a wye source, or some other way to reference it to earth. Doesn't matter to me because all that is on my poles is 3 phase delta.

To power my home there is a single phase input 50 kVA transformer tied to two of the primary delta wires. So two insulated primary posts on my transformer. On the secondary is a center tapped winding with the neutral wire connected to a ground rod at the transformer pole. That secondary is described as a single phase source. I will accept that general description, but when you look at it using the neutral point as a reference, then it is really a two phase source. But don't let that confuse you as most electricians will call it single phase. There are three wires from the transformer to my main panel, two hots, and one neutral.

If no additional grounding (earthing) was done at my main panel, then the system is still tied to ground at the transformer pole. But it is required that a second grounding be done at my main panel. In my case this is a 150 ft long 1" copper water line.

As you progress from one neighbor to another on my block their single phase power will be supplied from different three phase wire pairs so as to approximately equalize power loading on the 3 phase system.

For a very few neighbors that require 3 phase power a second transformer is added to the pole. This is connected between the third primary phase wire, and one of the two phase wires supplying the single phase transformer. The output side of these two transformers now provides 3 phase power to the customer from what is called an open delta. A third transformer could be added to make a closed delta. But that is not economical. If three phase loading increased a lot, then the power company would add a third transformer. In our area we have a lot of open delta supplies.

There are areas in our city where primary power is distributed as a wye system. This means that in various areas there are just two primary distribution wires, and single phase pole transformers with one insulated primary bushing. One primary wire is earthed, and this is also connected to the ground rod at the pole, and to the neutral of the secondary. In these areas you can not get three phase power unless another primary side wire is added.

A power company is not going to provide you with a wild leg supply unless you pay for it. A wild leg requires a second transformer vs just one transformer for regular single phase service. Some wild leg services will use three transformers. At my son's shop he has a wild leg service. The single phase service transformer is probably close to 200 kVA, and the wild leg transformer somewhat smaller. If three phase loading went up, then a third transformer would be added, but it would still remain a wild leg structure, and become a closed delta.

What did you mean by this --- "No one here has ever seen such a thing."

.
 
Because you have a majority of load being 120/240 single phase but have that one or two items that are three phase.
Possibly when they were built, but two of the buildings I'm thinking of are an old warehouse/factory (now workshops) and a 90-year-old fraternal building; both have a substantial amount of 3-phase equipment now.

If you have 120/240 why do you need 3Ø ?
The usual reason- motors.
 

drcampbell

Senior Member
Location
The Motor City, Michigan USA
Occupation
Registered Professional Engineer
... That secondary is described as a single phase source. I will accept that general description, but when you look at it using the neutral point as a reference, then it is really a two phase source. ...
It's better described as single-phase, split phase, since there's no phase angle between the two hot legs.
The phase angle is what makes polyphase power more useful than single-phase power.
 
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drcampbell

Senior Member
Location
The Motor City, Michigan USA
Occupation
Registered Professional Engineer
Single phase motors on this side of the pond use two conductors and either 120 or 240 volts, not a 120/240 split-phase three-wire circuit.

In intermediate sizes -- 0.5 to 3 kW or so -- it's common for motors to be configureable for either 120 or 240 volts, but once configured, will use only one voltage and two conductors.
 

Besoeker3

Senior Member
Location
UK
Occupation
Retired Electrical Engineer
Single phase motors on this side of the pond use two conductors and either 120 or 240 volts, not a 120/240 split-phase three-wire circuit.

In intermediate sizes -- 0.5 to 3 kW or so -- it's common for motors to be configureable for either 120 or 240 volts, but once configured, will use only one voltage and two conductors.
So it's not really 3Ø?
 

winnie

Senior Member
Location
Springfield, MA, USA
Occupation
Electric motor research
So it's not really 3Ø?

'High leg' delta is really three phase. It is a delta system with the midpoint of one phase grounded.

Common residential service in the US is single phase center tapped, thus 120/240V _single phase_.

If the additional leg is brought to this to create a true three phase system, then you have 240/120V three phase, an intentionally unbalanced (relative to ground) three phase system which provides 120V for low power single phase loads, 240V for higher power single phase loads, true 240V three phase, as well as an unused 208V L-G .

-Jon
 

Besoeker3

Senior Member
Location
UK
Occupation
Retired Electrical Engineer
'High leg' delta is really three phase. It is a delta system with the midpoint of one phase grounded.

Common residential service in the US is single phase center tapped, thus 120/240V _single phase_.

If the additional leg is brought to this to create a true three phase system, then you have 240/120V three phase, an intentionally unbalanced (relative to ground) three phase system which provides 120V for low power single phase loads, 240V for higher power single phase loads, true 240V three phase, as well as an unused 208V L-G .

-Jon
But if it's 240/120 there would no 208V needed/required?
 

drcampbell

Senior Member
Location
The Motor City, Michigan USA
Occupation
Registered Professional Engineer
clarification: The illustration above depicts transformer secondary windings, not a three-phase motor.

If a three-phase motor were hooked up to one of these supplies, the "neutral" wire would not be used. It's only used for 120-volt single-phase loads.

The presence of 208 volts to ground on the wild leg is an unintended secondary consequence of this configuration, and infrequently used.
(and even less frequently used correctly)
 

norcal

Senior Member
But if it's 240/120 there would no 208V needed/required?
Two phases are 120V L-N, one is 208V L-N, any phase to phase voltage is 240V, and any two phases can be used for a 240V 1Ø load, even the high leg, but do not want to use it when a neutral is required.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Possibly when they were built, but two of the buildings I'm thinking of are an old warehouse/factory (now workshops) and a 90-year-old fraternal building; both have a substantial amount of 3-phase equipment now.
If the three phase load is substantial enough now they might have closed the delta that once was open.

If you were starting from scratch with same load you possibly get 208/120 from the start. Especially if the facility is on it's own source. If you sharing the source with surrounding customers that only utilizing 120/240 single phase, you possibly have a delta source, depending on load needs it may or may not be open delta. could even be closed delta but with a bigger transformer for the 120/240 single phase side of the delta.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
clarification: The illustration above depicts transformer secondary windings, not a three-phase motor.

If a three-phase motor were hooked up to one of these supplies, the "neutral" wire would not be used. It's only used for 120-volt single-phase loads.

The presence of 208 volts to ground on the wild leg is an unintended secondary consequence of this configuration, and infrequently used.
(and even less frequently used correctly)
Used correctly sort of depends on the design of the source. If open delta with a small high leg pot, the source wasn't designed for much load on the high leg. If full delta with three equal sized pots, it was designed for higher and balanced power - which could be primarily all three phase loads or single phase loads that operate line to line, but somewhat balanced across the lines. Not a good idea to run any significant amount of single phase line to neutral loads on the high leg though (they will need to be 208 volt rated load if you do though)
 
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