Two parts-out door hottub/service call charging

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jdelectricsvc

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We're located in "hickville," Iowa, so we don't receive many service calls for outdoor hottubs. On this rare occasion, the customer called and stated they needed a 240V 60A Siemens breaker. The original breaker was already taken out of the sub-panel...new one installed but I noticed the load neutral was installed on the neutral bar. Thinking this wasn't right I put the load neutral on the breaker and the pigtale on the neutral bar, but it instantly tripped and wouldn't reset. The hottub was still under warranty so I told the customer that there was still a problem and I wans't going to void their warranty by opening the hottub up. The technician shows up and says both neutrals must be on the neutral bar. Low and behold......it works, but can someone please give a clear reason behind not having a load neutral installed on the GFCI breaker and just installing the "line" pigtale neutral of the breaker to neutral bar? This sorts of defies the logic behind having the GFCI breaker. I furnished the new breaker, but because I installed the new breaker incorrectly and had to have the service tech come back how do you charge, if at all for the second service call...chalk it up to being taught something new and forget it.........
 
Northern NY (way up North)

Northern NY (way up North)

:)
jdelectricsvc said:
We're located in "hickville," Iowa, so we don't receive many service calls for outdoor hottubs. On this rare occasion,......
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We got a "Hickville" here in upstate New York, tew. 'Cept we don't got no lek-tri -sity fer r hottubs. :grin: :D Kuzin Buford sez he's got a kerosene powered TV, but ya caint beleeve him.:roll:
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In answer to your question, you might have to eat the service charge, but not without explaining the condition you were faced with in the beginning. The guys around here in the supply houses are forever robbing parts out of one box and providing them for another...with the intent of replacing stuff, but forgetting to.
 
jdelectricsvc said:
The technician shows up and says both neutrals must be on the neutral bar. Low and behold......it works, but can someone please give a clear reason behind not having a load neutral installed on the GFCI breaker and just installing the "line" pigtale neutral of the breaker to neutral bar? This sorts of defies the logic behind having the GFCI breaker.......
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Huh?:confused:
 
mdshunk said:
There's a problem with that hot tub, brother. Is your insurance paid up?
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Yup make sure your insurance is paid up, The GFCIs used for 220V applications, need to look at both Hots as well as neutral. The principles are basically the same as 120v GFCIs Sum of the currents in (hot1 + hot2) plus (neutral should be at zero unless a fault exists).


"can someone please give a clear reason behind not having a load neutral installed on the GFCI breaker and just installing the "line" pigtale neutral of the breaker to neutral bar? "

Yes, someone din't read the instructions.

"The technician shows up and says both neutrals must be on the neutral bar"

just installing the "line" pigtale neutral of the breaker, to neutral bar does not offer any protection on the neutral, I would wire the breaker per manufacture instructions and let the so called tech find the problem in the tub.
 
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Is the hot tub using the neutral as a neutral or as an EGC? It sounds like it is being used as and EGC. If it were being used as neutral, the GFCI would trip under load, if it is being used as an EGC and connected to the breaker it would trip instantly.
Don
 
don_resqcapt19 said:
Is the hot tub using the neutral as a neutral or as an EGC? It sounds like it is being used as and EGC. If it were being used as neutral, the GFCI would trip under load, if it is being used as an EGC and connected to the breaker it would trip instantly.
Don
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Good point Don!
 
don_resqcapt19 said:
Is the hot tub using the neutral as a neutral or as an EGC? It sounds like it is being used as and EGC. If it were being used as neutral, the GFCI would trip under load, if it is being used as an EGC and connected to the breaker it would trip instantly.
Don
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How can a neutral be used as an EGC? It's either an neutral or it's an EGC or it has a non-compliant bond. In any event, there's trouble.
 
jdelectricsvc said:
The technician shows up and says both neutrals must be on the neutral bar.
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is the Technician telling the Electrician how to make it work?
 
Marc,
How can a neutral be used as an EGC? It's either an neutral or it's an EGC or it has a non-compliant bond. In any event, there's trouble.
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It is a white wire being used as a green wire. If it were really being used as a neutral, that is with load current, the GFCI would not hold with the neutral connected to the neutral bar.
Don
 
Perfect example of why you need to know everything electrical....you got outshined and bullied by a guy with minimal training on a specific product. WTF does he know about how electricity works? That's your job. And you, in front of the customer, let the minimum wage spa tech make you look incompetent.

Good luck. Chalk the money up as tuition, and don't let it happen again.
 
I'm sorry...that was mean and negative. don't worry about it...shake it off...the customer won't even remember. Send them the bill, if they don't want to pay, don't worry about it. It's only money.

[****pats OP on the back***]it'll be ok...keep your chin up....
 
I'll take that advice into consideration.

I apologized and made nice, what more can I do?

Why do you hate me so much? I just want everyone to be happy
 
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jdelectricsvc said:
...new one installed but I noticed the load neutral was installed on the neutral bar. Thinking this wasn't right I put the load neutral on the breaker and the pigtale on the neutral bar...
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I just walked in from a run just this evening where I hooked up the pigtail for an outdoor Hot-tub. After making up the connections of the disconnect I tested the lines. I had 240 volts line to line, when I tested Line to neutral, it tripped the GFCI breaker. I opened up the panel the GFCI breaker had the pigtail to the neutral bar. I tested from the line at the breaker to neutral and the breaker tripped yet again. I noticed that the neutral out to the Hot-tub was connected straight to the neutral bar in the main panel. Moved the Hot-tub neutral to the GFCI breaker, reset and teated again: this time it held when tested from line to neutral and tripped when teated from line to Ground, as it should.

Just thought I would throw this out for anyone who might be interested.
 
I had the same situation with a hot tub, hooked the gfci breaker with neutral to breaker, pig tail to bar. Breaker would trip. When all fails read the mfg. wiring instructions taped to the inside of the cover, their in black and white is the drawing showing no neutral just the pigtail from breaker landing on neutral bar, egc landing on ground lug. looked closer terminal bar shows where to land the two hot and egc but no where did it show a lug for the neutral.
 
ceb said:
I had the same situation with a hot tub, hooked the gfci breaker with neutral to breaker, pig tail to bar. Breaker would trip. When all fails read the mfg. wiring instructions taped to the inside of the cover, their in black and white is the drawing showing no neutral just the pigtail from breaker landing on neutral bar, egc landing on ground lug. looked closer terminal bar shows where to land the two hot and egc but no where did it show a lug for the neutral.
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That makes no sense. If the tub didn't use a neutral, it shouldn't matter a hill of beans if you have the unused neutral landed on the neutral lug of the GFCI breaker. If you have a neutral hooked to some lug at the tub end, and the breaker trips, there must be a non-compliant bond at the tub someplace, I would think.
 
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