Two parts-out door hottub/service call charging

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Marc, You are correct. It was my "bad" the lug was non compliant on the terminal and I should have posted that. But thinking about this install what good is the gfic breaker? Their is no neutral
 
ceb said:
. But thinking about this install what good is the gfic breaker? Their is no neutral
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A 2-pole GFCI breaker doesn't need a neutral to function. If there's any imbalance that isn't accounted for by analyzing both legs along with something possible on the neutral, it must be going to ground or a person. Doesn't need a neutral to trip.

There's just something fundamentally wrong with a hot tub that trips when you properly connect the GFCI breaker, and that's all you can say for sure about that.
 
my guess is no. There is an old saying "If you dazzle them with your knowledge, baffle them with your BS"

I think the sauna tech succeeded with the 2nd part.
 
Conductor sizing

Conductor sizing

Another thing to consider is to make sure all your conductors are the same gauge on the load side of that gfci breaker.I had some Hot Spring spas nuisance tripping the Gfci because the ground was under sized. I have also come across these dual feed tubs fed with a 60 amp feeder that changed to a 20 and 30 double pole to feed there motors and heat seperately, they really dont like an undersized ground.
 
RUWIREDRITE said:
nuisance tripping the Gfci because the ground was under sized. They really dont like an undersized ground.
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That doesn't makre sense. A GFCI can work without a ground. Please explain how the GFI knows the ground is too small.
 
ground

ground

I have seen installations in the past where someone skinned 6/3 romex and used it on the load side of the raintight disconnect. the gfci tripped occasionally. i went back pulling 4- #6 in the pvc conduit, the problem vanished. I called the tech line for the tub in question, they said i did the proper repair.There tub technology must sense ground sizing i figure.
 
Dennis Alwon said:
Or perhaps whoever skinned the NM cable cut a little to deep and nicked one of the wires.
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That is a an astute thought, I agree a neutral to EGC fault could trip the GFCI.

The reduced size EGC (higher impedance path back to the source) would be less likely to trip a GFCI.
 
Grounding conductor

Grounding conductor

If the ground size isnt an issue as stated how come you can trip a gfci by touching the ground and neutral together on the load side of a gfci. I think its monitering the ground also, and impediance can be an issue.
 
RUWIREDRITE said:
If the ground size isn't an issue as stated how come you can trip a gfci by touching the ground and neutral together on the load side of a gfci. I think its monitoring the ground also, and impedance can be an issue.
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No it monitors the hot (s) and neutral, not the ground.


BTW, your avatar looks like me heading for the coffee pot at 5 am every morning. When did you sneak in my apartment and take that picture?:D
 
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Again i ask if the ground is not monitered, how come you can trip a gfci by touching the load neutral to ground?
You should see the animated version of my avatar, pretty cool?
I used it for my halloween decorations in my front yard, lol
 
JohnJ0906 said:
No it monitors the hot (s) and neutral, not the ground.
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I agree.

All a GFCI does is compare the current at any given moment on the circuit conductors (not including the EGC) if at any moment the current on the circuit conductors is not the same by more than about 5 ma the GFCI will trip.

The reason a neutral to ground connection on the load side of a GFCI will trip a GFCI is because some of the circuit current will head back to the source on the grounding conductor.
 
A GFCI will work just fine, and trip just fine with NO EGC! That is why they are used as receptacle replacements where there is no EGC. NEC 406.3 (D)
 
If a Gfci won't trip without a ground why would it trip if an undersized ground were there. I have hooked GFCI to old circuits with reduced grounds without a problem.
 
Grounding conductor

Grounding conductor

I agree and understand your findings on this, but how do i explain to the consumer the hot tub technician says this will fix there nuisance trip. I raise an eyebrow but do it as told and it works. Gotta keep them happy i guess no matter what the diagnosis or code is.
 
Without knowing the entire situation I would not venture a guess but I will tell you that techicians for the tub are not necessarily any better than we are. I had one tell the owner the reason the tub was tripping was because the wiring to the tub was stranded not solid wire.

I fought for days with them-- I did not do the original install --- I finally got the boss out there and he found the problem.
 
Gfci

Gfci

Most trips i found on hot tubs are from bad heating elements usually. Not all tubs respond the same way in which there wired. Mines been running for years without a hitch.I guess we much take each situation thats throw at us and deal with it accordingly. Oh well, i guess its time for me to go raid all the easter baskets my wife prepared for the grandchildren, heck they'll never know, lol
Happy Easter to all!
 
GFCI_circuit.gif
 
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