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Two people electrocuted in separate incidents

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gadfly56

Senior Member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Professional Engineer, Fire & Life Safety

In the first case, would the cell phone wall wart limit the current to prevent tripping while passing enough to cause defibrillation? Assuming whatever receptacle in use was not GFCI.
 

K8MHZ

Senior Member
Location
Michigan. It's a beautiful peninsula, I've looked
Occupation
Electrician
In the first case, would the cell phone wall wart limit the current to prevent tripping while passing enough to cause defibrillation? Assuming whatever receptacle in use was not GFCI.

According to the article, there was a burn mark on her hand. I don't understand how that can happen with anything plugged into a cell phone. I wonder if there is a 'rest of the story'?
 

gadfly56

Senior Member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Professional Engineer, Fire & Life Safety
According to the article, there was a burn mark on her hand. I don't understand how that can happen with anything plugged into a cell phone. I wonder if there is a 'rest of the story'?

Possibly a lightning strike, and she was in contact with the drain?
 

gadfly56

Senior Member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Professional Engineer, Fire & Life Safety
Pretty sure this one will receive a Darwin Award.

Ahhh, I'm not sure I'd be quick to hand out plaques just yet. Not enough info. Besides, being a teen should allow leeway for a certain degree of stupidity without it being a death sentence.
 

robertd

Senior Member
Location
Maryland
Occupation
electrical contractor
According to the article, there was a burn mark on her hand. I don't understand how that can happen with anything plugged into a cell phone. I wonder if there is a 'rest of the story'?

The burn mark seems to rule out the normal output of the power supply, (5 to 20 V AC or DC but only a couple of watts).

If the power supply failed in a mode that put 120V or something close to that on ALL of the wires to the phone that could
produce the burn. I say all wires because if you put 120V on just one of the wires from the power supply to the phone
the phone would smoke when plugged in.

If the bathtub was energized the cell phone may of just acted as a ground. Do GFCI's open the neutral or just the hot?
If they open both conductors and there's no ground on the cell phone power supply the GFCI might provide protection.

If the bathtub and cell phone are powered by different phases/pole you could get 208V or 240V, not 120V. Can a 120V
GFCI open when subjected to 208/240V?
 

Jraef

Moderator, OTD
Staff member
Location
San Francisco Bay Area, CA, USA
Occupation
Electrical Engineer
I doubt we will ever hear the details, it's so tragic that I think once an investigation is done, it will be kept to the family.

Here's my scenario: "in the bathtub" implies she was likely lying down in it, head propped up on one end, phone at her ear. The phone started to die, she reacted by grabbing the charger with wet hands and plugged it in, after making the charger and cord wet all the way up. Electricity tracked along the water to her hand, across her heart to the plumbing. The burn mark was from that tracking, not from the phone case itself, that was conjecture. Now, why was there a receptacle within reach of the bathtub that was not on a GFCI? Old installation that was never brought up to code. My parent's house built in 1951 was like that; you could be in the tub and have a radio fall in and kill you. That's WHY they made it code to have GFCIs in bathrooms.

Heard an interesting discussion on the radio about brain development in teenagers. They have thousands of times more neural connections than adults over age 25 do, so that's why they can think faster and believe they know more; they are absorbing high volumes of information very fast and it makes them think they are super human. But until the age of about 20, almost none of those neural connections are making it to the prefrontal cortex, the area of the brain where logic and reasoning take place; the "if A then likely B or C" is thought through. the neural connections start at the back with basic animal functionality and work their way forward as we age. After 25, all of the connections to that prefrontal cortex are complete, and our brains begin "trimming the tree" of all of these relatively useless neural connections, optimizing our brain function by using logic and reasoning. That's why Teens need adult guidance; they need our prefrontal cortexes until they can make rational decisions on their own. Like not plugging a phone charger into the wall while in a bathtub...
 

Bigrig

Member
Location
Dayton, OH
Cheap charger?

Cheap charger?

Watch some of the bigclive YouTube videos. Many of the cheap chargers are downright dangerous. Poor insulation on the transformer windings and inadequate separation of the main and secondary side of the circuit board. Combine that with left over flux/crud on the circuit board, no overcurrent protection and a humid environment and I am surprised that more people are not harmed.
 

newservice

Senior Member
Aside from the sheer tragedy of this loss of life, and the how and why did it happen, it sure makes me stop and think..I know it will pass my mind as I install or repair a gfci.

That said I cannot help but wonder if the lightening strike comment may be closer to right, leaving a burn mark even with 120vac rms .?.how much of a burn mark could it make? Would have to be just about a dead short.
 

Jraef

Moderator, OTD
Staff member
Location
San Francisco Bay Area, CA, USA
Occupation
Electrical Engineer
Forgot to mention that the other tragedy with the little girl at the dock is one that will likely result in some rolling heads. Sometimes when I go to marinas I get PO'd when I see the lack of maintenance and attention paid to the electrical systems. Given the nature of the activities surrounding water, I think it's tragic that inspections are so lax. If it were a public swimming pool it would get regular inspections (in most places).
 

gadfly56

Senior Member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Professional Engineer, Fire & Life Safety
Forgot to mention that the other tragedy with the little girl at the dock is one that will likely result in some rolling heads. Sometimes when I go to marinas I get PO'd when I see the lack of maintenance and attention paid to the electrical systems. Given the nature of the activities surrounding water, I think it's tragic that inspections are so lax. If it were a public swimming pool it would get regular inspections (in most places).

It must have taken them some time to get her out of the water. I know first aid squads at the Shore are top-notch, and Children's Specialized Hospital is only blocks away.
 

GoldDigger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Placerville, CA, USA
Occupation
Retired PV System Designer
Lovington police Detective Sgt. David Miranda told The Associated Press on Tuesday that a cellphone, a charging cord and an extension cord were found by the bathtub.
So possibly she was plugging in the charging wall wart into the extension cord at the time?
 

Jraef

Moderator, OTD
Staff member
Location
San Francisco Bay Area, CA, USA
Occupation
Electrical Engineer
So possibly she was plugging in the charging wall wart into the extension cord at the time?

Well that could explain why there was no GFCI. Makes me wonder if she used the extension cord because the GFCI receptacle in the bathroom had already tripped on her and she didn't understand the significance.

That now just made me realize that I don't recall ever having explained any of that specifically to my kids... My wife, yes, because she tripped it once and asked me why it didn't work. I've gotta have "the talk" with my kids.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Occupation
EC
Aside from the sheer tragedy of this loss of life, and the how and why did it happen, it sure makes me stop and think..I know it will pass my mind as I install or repair a gfci.

That said I cannot help but wonder if the lightening strike comment may be closer to right, leaving a burn mark even with 120vac rms .?.how much of a burn mark could it make? Would have to be just about a dead short.

If she couldn't let go current would continue to flow and there could be burning of flesh.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Occupation
EC
Pretty sure this one will receive a Darwin Award.

Ahhh, I'm not sure I'd be quick to hand out plaques just yet. Not enough info. Besides, being a teen should allow leeway for a certain degree of stupidity without it being a death sentence.

Along with Jraef's explanation of how young brains work - there will still be people (especially younger people) that would use a phone while plugged in in such situations, but you can almost bet anybody close to this girl learned a lesson about that and won't do it.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Occupation
EC
the battery may have discharged across her hand, easily a few amps
adding to the wall wart current
A phone battery I have laying on my desk says it is 3.85 volts, charge volts 4.4 volts. Is that going to push enough current through a human body that is presumably in reasonable health condition to kill them?

Now if premises supply volts to the charger is somehow imposed on the charging cable (likely malfunction or even cheap non listed component) I can easily see that electrocuting someone.
 

jaggedben

Senior Member
Location
Northern California
Occupation
Solar and Energy Storage Installer
I read an article about the girl in the bathtub and thought it didn't make much sense how they were focusing so much on the cellphone. The theories in this thread regarding how she might have gotten 120V to herself in the tub make a lot more sense. Extension cord... :happysad:
 
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