Two services to same property

Status
Not open for further replies.
M

mdb94

Member
Location
Arizona
Hi, I am working a residential job that has 2 electrical services. One is a metered 400 amp serving the home, and there is a second metered 200 amp service supplying the pool equipment. The 400 amp is mounted on the west side of the home. The 200 amp is mounted on the property's block fence on the east side of the home. The pool and pool equipment are on the east side as well. They are building an addition on the east side of the home (just expanding the master bedroom and bath), and I need to get a couple extra circuits to this area for a jetted tub, new 20 amp bath gfci, and an undercab fridge and maybe ice maker. It will be major work to get these new circuits from the west 400 amp panel. Can these circuits be added from the panel on the east side of the property? In otherwords, can a single family home be fed circuits from two different metered services? Note: I have no idea why there is a second metered panel for the pool equipment. The home was built probably in the '80's.
Thank you, Chris
 
I agree with Derek. "Approval" would be an AHJ call but what you propose would normally not be acceptable.
 
At least indicate at the home panel that other circuits are fed from a second source and its location.
 
packersparky said:
Not saying i don't agree, but what code section would you cite that prohibits this?
Click to expand...

230.2 Number of Services.
A building or other structure served shall be supplied by only one service unless permitted in 230.2(A) through (D).

225.30 Number of Supplies.
Where more than one building or other structure is on the same property and under single management, each additional building or other structure that is served by a branch circuit or feeder on the load side of the service disconnecting means shall be supplied by only one feeder or branch circuit unless permitted in 225.30(A) through (E).
 
@mdb94
What makes it difficult to judge is that you have not described any difference in characteristics between the services that would justify having two. For example different rate schedules or voltage/phases. If there's no difference that explains why there were two services to begin with then it is probably entirely an AHJ call what can be done and what can be grandfathered.
 
jaggedben said:
@mdb94
What makes it difficult to judge is that you have not described any difference in characteristics between the services that would justify having two. For example different rate schedules or voltage/phases. If there's no difference that explains why there were two services to begin with then it is probably entirely an AHJ call what can be done and what can be grandfathered.
Click to expand...

There is no difference as far as I can tell. Seems like the pool was added later, and someone decided it would be better/easier to run a new service just for that. Standard single phase underground residential service in Arizona. I know what I propose would work fine, and like someone said, make sure to note in the main panel that there are circuits in the home fed from a second service (which I realize is not standard protocol) but I was more interested in any bonding/grounding issues that would make this unsafe?
 
While we're happy to offer our opinions, you should save yourself headaches down the road and ask your inspector (or AHJ) what they think or will allow, before you do the work.

Might be some work but could you run a feed from the 400A panel to the 200A panel and do away with the separate 200A service?
 
mdb94 said:
There is no difference as far as I can tell. Seems like the pool was added later, and someone decided it would be better/easier to run a new service just for that. Standard single phase underground residential service in Arizona. I know what I propose would work fine, and like someone said, make sure to note in the main panel that there are circuits in the home fed from a second service (which I realize is not standard protocol) but I was more interested in any bonding/grounding issues that would make this unsafe?
Click to expand...

I suspect that if the utility was asked to put in a new service they were happy to be paid for doing so. What's more baffling is why the AHJ agreed it was okay. To me the most important question is what you'll face at inspection.
 
jaggedben said:
I suspect that if the utility was asked to put in a new service they were happy to be paid for doing so. What's more baffling is why the AHJ agreed it was okay. To me the most important question is what you'll face at inspection.
Click to expand...

Why would the authority having jurisdiction have an issue allowing a new service to a separate structure. He has to allow it, IMO.
 
jaggedben said:
I suspect that if the utility was asked to put in a new service they were happy to be paid for doing so. What's more baffling is why the AHJ agreed it was okay. To me the most important question is what you'll face at inspection.
Click to expand...

Dennis Alwon said:
Why would the authority having jurisdiction have an issue allowing a new service to a separate structure. He has to allow it, IMO.
Click to expand...

On first read I was in agreement with jaggedben assuming the wall was connected to the residence which here would likely be ruled one structure.
The devil may well be in the details.
 
Where was it stated that there is more than one structure? OP's last post says 'home fed from a second service'. If there are - or were - separate structures that's part of the explanation we seem to be missing.
 
Dennis Alwon said:
Why would the authority having jurisdiction have an issue allowing a new service to a separate structure. He has to allow it, IMO.
Click to expand...

I agree with Dennis. By the way the OP describes it they are separate structures, that's why they were allowed. Now if this addition was separated by a 2 hr fire wall he could run from the pool panel. But an addition to a bed room and bath wouldn't have such a wall so it appears he is confined to the service for the house.
 
mdb94 said:
The 400 amp is mounted on the west side of the home. The 200 amp is mounted on the property's block fence on the east side of the home. The pool and pool equipment are on the east side as well. They are building an addition on the east side of the home (just expanding the master bedroom and bath), and I need to get a couple extra circuits to this area for a jetted tub, new 20 amp bath gfci, and an undercab fridge and maybe ice maker. It will be major work to get these new circuits from the west 400 amp panel. Can these circuits be added from the panel on the east side of the property? In otherwords, can a single family home be fed circuits from two different metered services?
Click to expand...

Dennis Alwon said:
Why would the authority having jurisdiction have an issue allowing a new service to a separate structure. He has to allow it, IMO.
Click to expand...

I was looking at this as a seperate structure also. There may even be some sort of pool house.

I have added a metered service (panel) on commercial property (apartment complex) mounted on a block wall to feed nothing more than sign lights. This signage was judged to be a seperate structure.

I wouldn't think that circuits from this panel would be allowed in the main structure. You possibly could run power from the seperate panel and put a disconnect close to the main disconnect . Looks like that service is on the other side of the house and would defeat the purpose of doing it that way.
 
augie47 said:
230.2 Number of Services.
A building or other structure served shall be supplied by only one service unless permitted in 230.2(A) through (D).

225.30 Number of Supplies.
Where more than one building or other structure is on the same property and under single management, each additional building or other structure that is served by a branch circuit or feeder on the load side of the service disconnecting means shall be supplied by only one feeder or branch circuit unless permitted in 225.30(A) through (E).
Click to expand...

I don't see anything in there that would not allow a bulding to be supplied a service and a branch circuit/feeder.
 
packersparky said:
I don't see anything in there that would not allow a bulding to be supplied a service and a branch circuit/feeder.
Click to expand...
IMO, if the branch circuit comes from a second service, that would constitute two service supplying one building... again IMO. As Bill mentioned in Post #9, it's all going to be an AHJ call anyway.
 
jaggedben said:
Where was it stated that there is more than one structure? OP's last post says 'home fed from a second service'. If there are - or were - separate structures that's part of the explanation we seem to be missing.
Click to expand...
The second service is mounted on a fence on the east side of the property. I take that to be a separate structure
 
Let's say we find a reason to allow the "second service".

Don't we still need to tie both services to the same grounding electrode system if they are supplying the same structure? If we had structural steel throughout the building this may not be that difficult, though that is not typical in single family dwellings.

Wouldn't connecting to the GES be as big or even a bigger problem as getting an additional branch circuit or two to the addition in OP's situation?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top