Two wire Romex w/ ground

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FrancisDoody

Senior Member
Location
Durham, CT
Last week had a service call to move a dryer circuit. While removing the old 220 volt cable a conversation followed as to whether a dryer could be hooked up using a two wire cable with a bare ground. Realizing that a dryer has a 120 volt timer and this device will be returning voltage to the electrical source via the equipment grounding conductor I thought that this would have been a violation. Is it or not a violation?
Thanks,
fran
 
iwire

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
Re: Two wire Romex w/ ground

It was always a violation to use the bare ground in NM as a neutral.

Now dryers and ranges must be wired with separate neutrals and grounds anyway.
 
S

stud696981

Senior Member
Re: Two wire Romex w/ ground

Back in the day when ranges and dryers could be three wire the code required the neutral to be insulated or type SE cable. Romex with a ground could not be used for the neutral.
 
H

hardworkingstiff

Senior Member
Location
Wilmington, NC
Re: Two wire Romex w/ ground

Originally posted by stud696981:
Back in the day when ranges and dryers could be three wire the code required the neutral to be insulated or type SE cable. Romex with a ground could not be used for the neutral.
Click to expand...
In Tidewater Va, they would not let the romex slide, but 8-3 SEU AL would be ok. I never understood the difference. (This was back in the early - mid 70's)
 
iwire

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
Re: Two wire Romex w/ ground

Originally posted by busman:
Air Traffic Controller?
Click to expand...
Flight 250: Tower this is 250 are we clear to land?

Controller Doody: Negative 250, continue circling. We have an emergency service call for a dryer outlet....

:D

[ August 27, 2005, 04:41 PM: Message edited by: iwire ]
 
George Stolz

George Stolz

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
Occupation
Service Manager
Re: Two wire Romex w/ ground

Originally posted by FrancisDoody:
Realizing that a dryer has a 120 volt timer and this device will be returning voltage to the electrical source via the equipment grounding conductor I thought that this would have been a violation.
Click to expand...
More than just the timer.

The dryer motor is 120V. I slapped an ampclamp on my folk's dryer, when it was malfunctioning. The heating element was broken, so the motor ran but the element wasn't drawing power.

The reading was: 4 amps on one phase, zero on the other. When I :)
 
busman

busman

Senior Member
Location
Northern Virginia
Occupation
Master Electrician / Electrical Engineer
Re: Two wire Romex w/ ground

George,

Add to that the light (if it has one). Hard to measure while the dryer is running.

Mark
 
iwire

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
Re: Two wire Romex w/ ground

Just to nit pick a little bit. :D

As far as I know it has never been permissible to use the grounding conductor also as the grounded conductor for dryers and ranges.

What was allowed for dryers and ranges was the use of the grounded conductor as a means for grounding the frame of the range or dryer.

It may seem like a minor difference but it is that difference that means that the bare conductor in NM was unusable for a 3 wire range or dryer circuit.

[ August 28, 2005, 09:24 AM: Message edited by: iwire ]
 
L

LawnGuyLandSparky

Senior Member
Re: Two wire Romex w/ ground

I suppose this is why many older installations came complete with a #16 or 18 awg from the dryer to the washer to the cold water spigot.
 
iwire

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
Re: Two wire Romex w/ ground

A grounding wire from an electric washer frame to the water pipe behind it was a common way to ground the washer if the outlet feeding it was only two wire.

Using the water pipe as a grounding conductor used to be allowed.

As far as the 16 AWG size, that will open a 15 or 20 amp overcurrent device, just as an 8 AWG will open a 100 amp device. :)

Old NM used to have a 16 AWG EGC.
 
J

jimwalker

Senior Member
Location
TAMPA FLORIDA
Re: Two wire Romex w/ ground

Rather risky to use that pipe.Should plumber replace a section with pvc your ground is not only missing but some other items might now get hot.
 
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