Ufer - attached addition - Main or Sub panel connection

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RedDevil

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As there are contradicting posts I was hoping an expert could resolve this.

Situation:

Existing Structure: 100 AMP Main panel w/ 2 ground rods feeding new sub panel in attached addition.

New "attached addition": 100 amp sub panel, new basement foundation has #4 copper attached to an embeded 20' 1/2' rebar with rated clamp. #2 alluminum 4 conductor is feeding this 100 amp sub off of a 60 amp breaker in the main panel. Bond screw is removed on sub panel.

Question 1. Does the #4 copper ufer wire need to be brought all the way back to the main panel, if so it's to short can it be bugged and extended. What would the proper splice method be.

Question 2. can / should the new hot water baseboard and tankless water heater be bonded to the new sub or brought back to the main panel, it's fed off the main panel but loacted in the new addition.

Question 3. Does the new sub panel need ground rods?
 
I agree but since the Ufer is there, you could splice with an irreversible compression sleeve and run it back to the main panel to enhance the original GES.
 
I think the op is asking about the ufer specifically. Some jurisdictions require you use the ufer when it is available. Perhaps since this is a new addition the ufer was available and it was required. Either way, the ufer needs to go back to the main not the sub panel.
 
If it were a detached building, then the Ufer would be landed to the ground bar in the sub panel but since this is a sub panel in an existing building, the GEC would have to go back to the main.
 
Ges

Ges

if all available items are bonded, prior to building the 'attached' addition, can't the ufer be bond to say the water pipe and thus become part of the GES?
 
billsnuff said:
if all available items are bonded, prior to building the 'attached' addition, can't the ufer be bond to say the water pipe and thus become part of the GES?
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As long as that point of connection was within the first 5' of the water pipe after entering the building
 
Sure but it would have to be landed to the water pipe within the first 5' of where the pipe enters the building.
 
So it seems the answer is:

UFER must go to main panel, not sub panel and if a splice is needed it must be an irreversable commpression type.

Does anyone know of a sleave that has screws for compression that "break off" after tightening, thereby making them irreversable. The local inspector said this would be acceptable. I never heard of them and there not in my books.

does anyone care to tackle question #2 above ?

Thanks ! everyone.
 
Could the ufer ground be treated as a supplementary grounding electrode and connected to the EGC per 250.54?
 
After reading a thread on 250.54 here, it seems that suplemetary grounding refers to equipment grounds, not sure if I could use this as an excuse to hook up the footing ground to the subpanel considering it's "available" and "could" be hooked to the main.

The problem is, it's a long haal to get to the main, not mensioning digging in a crawl space filled with cloradane..
 
Question 2--- Are the water pipes in the addition for the baeboard heaters not connected to the existing water pipes?
 
RedDevil said:
So it seems the answer is:

UFER must go to main panel, not sub panel and if a splice is needed it must be an irreversable commpression type.

Does anyone know of a sleave that has screws for compression that "break off" after tightening, thereby making them irreversable. The local inspector said this would be acceptable. I never heard of them and there not in my books.

does anyone care to tackle question #2 above ?

Thanks ! everyone.
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For a irreversible crimp we always use the wr crimps. Never seen a sleeve with screws that snap off
 
jghrist said:
Could the ufer ground be treated as a supplementary grounding electrode and connected to the EGC per 250.54?
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Supplementary (now called auxiliary) grounding electrodes have nothing to do with the grounding electrode system. You may be referring to a supplemental grounding electrode. This is used to to supplement electrodes that are part of the GES. The CEE can be attached to any nearby available electrode that is connected to the existing GES.

1113918256_2.jpg
 
RedDevil said:
As there are contradicting posts I was hoping an expert could resolve this.

Situation:

Existing Structure: 100 AMP Main panel w/ 2 ground rods feeding new sub panel in attached addition.

New "attached addition": 100 amp sub panel, new basement foundation has #4 copper attached to an embeded 20' 1/2' rebar with rated clamp. #2 alluminum 4 conductor is feeding this 100 amp sub off of a 60 amp breaker in the main panel. Bond screw is removed on sub panel.

Question 1. Does the #4 copper ufer wire need to be brought all the way back to the main panel, if so it's too short can it be bugged and extended. What would the proper splice method be.
Click to expand...
Yes, it needs to be brought all the way back to the existing GES. Yes it may be extended in length by using an irreversible crimp-style connector.

RedDevil said:
Question 2. can / should the new hot water baseboard and tankless water heater be bonded to the new sub or brought back to the main panel, it's fed off the main panel but loacted in the new addition.
Click to expand...
Are they not grounded properly through the use of the equipment grounding conductor(s) within the branch circuits feeding them?

RedDevil said:
Question 3. Does the new sub panel need ground rods?
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No. You already have a GES in place at the main panelboard. :smile:
 
RedDevil said:
As there are contradicting posts I was hoping an expert could resolve this.
Click to expand...
No, but we can all make you sorry you asked. :D

Question 1. Does the #4 copper ufer wire need to be brought all the way back to the main panel, if so it's to short can it be bugged and extended. What would the proper splice method be.
Click to expand...
In my opinion, only if the AHJ requires it. When the service (and subsequently the GES) were installed, the Ufer was not required to be used. So, it could be argued either way as to whether this new Ufer need be connected to the old, existing service.

Question 2. can / should the new hot water baseboard and tankless water heater be bonded to the new sub or brought back to the main panel, it's fed off the main panel but loacted in the new addition.
Click to expand...
The appliances are bonded through their connection to the EGC of the circuit serving them.

The water piping should be bonded in accordance with 250.104.

Question 3. Does the new sub panel need ground rods?
Click to expand...
No.
 
Supplementary (now called auxiliary) grounding electrodes have nothing to do with the grounding electrode system. You may be referring to a supplemental grounding electrode. This is used to to supplement electrodes that are part of the GES. The CEE can be attached to any nearby available electrode that is connected to the existing GES.
Click to expand...
Actually, I meant supplementary (now auxiliary). Normally, this is an unnecessary ground rod installed at a piece of equipment because some manufacturer says it is needed. There doesn't appear to be anything in 250.54, however, that would restrict it to this situation. 250.54 doesn't say what type of electrode is permitted to be an auxiliary electrode. 250.54 doesn't say it has to be at equipment, only that it be connected to the EGC and that the earth not be used as the ground return path.
 
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