Ufer Ground & Ground Rods

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construct said:
So on new construction, if reinforcing steel is installed in the concrete, it must be used as part of your grounding electrode system. If the structural engineer happens to spec out plain concrete (not likely), then this would be a non-issue.
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Many areas, including NC, have taken the stand that the rebar is not available when the ec comes to wire the house/ addition so it is not necessary. I would love to see that interpretation changed.
 
Dennis Alwon said:
:D:D:D:D

Why no rebar? :D:D I found it amusing you thought I may have meant your post.
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They say it is not needed, I never understood. I have lived in MD and CA and it was always required. I have worked in NC and it was required. I have worked in Richmond and it was required. A local law is all I can guess. I know I put it in when I built my house extension. Cuz I wanted to.
 
jumper said:
They say it is not needed, I never understood. I have lived in MD and CA and it was always required. I have worked in NC and it was required. I have worked in Richmond and it was required. A local law is all I can guess. I know I put it in when I built my house extension. Cuz I wanted to.
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Okay I thought you were saying they didn't allow it but what you are saying is that it is not necessary. Wow- I am still surprised.
 
jumper said:
Local building code here allows no rebar in footer for 1 story houses. Strange, but true.
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Dennis Alwon said:
Okay I thought you were saying they didn't allow it but what you are saying is that it is not necessary. Wow- I am still surprised.
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I should have wrote "does not require", instead of "allows no". A poor choice of words can easily lead to confusion. My bad. I was surprised at the building code also.
 
Dennis Alwon said:
Many areas, including NC, have taken the stand that the rebar is not available when the ec comes to wire the house/ addition so it is not necessary. I would love to see that interpretation changed.
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I agree with your desire to see that interpretation changed. IMO, a CEE is preferred where extremely rocky soil or shot rock fill is all that is available to drive a rod into.
 
jumper said:
They say it is not needed, I never understood. I have lived in MD and CA and it was always required. I have worked in NC and it was required. I have worked in Richmond and it was required. A local law is all I can guess. I know I put it in when I built my house extension. Cuz I wanted to.
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Most concrete trades people I have dealt with won't pour concrete without reinforcement. However, under the International Residential Code, It is technically only required in a "C" or above seismic zone. I still think it's a good idea to use reinforcement because concrete shrinks as it cures. Just my opinion though.
 
construct said:
Most concrete trades people I have dealt with won't pour concrete without reinforcement. However, under the International Residential Code, It is technically only required in a "C" or above seismic zone. I still think it's a good idea to use reinforcement because concrete shrinks as it cures. Just my opinion though.
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I was bidding a huge home addition and went to walk the job. I noticed that the foundation was already installed. When I inquired about the CEE I was told that it wasn't needed since the footing contained #3 or 3/8" rebar. The GC showed me the plans which the architect spec'd #3 and commented that the rebar wasn't even needed.
 
Danutdlp said:
My friend is adding 1100 sq ft onto his older home, and since there will be a new footing poured for the addition and the service moved and upgraded, I am able to run a ufer ground in the foundation footing. Do I still need to drive in 2 ground rods?

Thanks:smile:
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Depends...If the 20' CEE length continuity is verifiable by standard resistance tester and acceptable by the L&I inspector, no visual nor rods are needed. Note that L&I is not the AHJ is some areas in WA and the inspection requirement may vary, so electrode method prior approval is needed. If a special inspection trip is required, a fee additional to the permit fee will be enforced. Check out WAC 296-46B-250 052 Grounding Electrodes or local AHJ where project is located. rbj
 
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infinity said:
I was bidding a huge home addition and went to walk the job. I noticed that the foundation was already installed. When I inquired about the CEE I was told that it wasn't needed since the footing contained #3 or 3/8" rebar. The GC showed me the plans which the architect spec'd #3 and commented that the rebar wasn't even needed.
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So if there is no rebar in the footing you are not required to have a cee?
 
fireryan said:
Wow I was always under the assumption that if the rebar was smaller than 1/2'' you had to run the 20' of #4. I learn something everyday:D
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Yup, here's the wording, if it doesn't contain 20' of 1/2" or larger rebar you are not required to use it or make one with 20' of #4 copper conductor.

250.52(A)(3) Concrete-Encased Electrode. An electrode encased by at least 50 mm (2 in.) of concrete, located horizontally near the bottom or vertically, and within that portion of a concrete foundation or footing that is in direct contact with the earth, consisting of at least 6.0 m (20 ft) of one or more bare or zinc galvanized or other electrically conductive coated steel reinforcing bars or rods of not less than 13 mm (? in.) in diameter, or consisting of at least 6.0 m (20 ft) of bare copper conductor not smaller than 4 AWG. Reinforcing bars shall be permitted to be bonded together by the usual steel tie wires or other effective means. Where multiple concrete-encased electrodes are present at a building or structure, it shall be permissible to bond only one into the grounding electrode system.
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CEE usage

CEE usage

Construction question for inspectors. Does the NEC #4 rebar CEE using a 2" minimum encasement conflict with UBC and IRC embedded form requirements of 3" minimum? Anybody run across this one where the structural rebar is doubled as an electrode?

The NEC [250.52(A)3] references for a vertical or horizontal permissible CEE as a UFER location may also be a trap. Generally #3 rebar is used for vertical risers in formed and block foundations and the horizontal footers are a minimum #4 (1/2" dia) rebar. Just a heads up on that. rbj
 
Dennis Alwon said:
Many areas, including NC, have taken the stand that the rebar is not available when the ec comes to wire the house/ addition so it is not necessary. I would love to see that interpretation changed.
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Dennis,
What code are you using. The word "available" in that code section was replaced with the word "present" to prevent the issue you are talking about.
(2002 code) 250.50 Grounding Electrode System.
If available on the premises at each building or structure served, each item in 250.52(A)(1) through (A)(6) shall be bonded together to form the grounding electrode system. Where none of these electrodes are available, one or more of the electrodes specified in 250.52(A)(4) through (A)(7) shall be installed and used.
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(2005 code) 250.50 Grounding Electrode System
All grounding electrodes as described in 250.52(A)(1) through (A)(6) that are present at each building or structure served shall be bonded together to form the grounding electrode system. Where none of these grounding electrodes exist, one or more of the grounding electrodes specified in 250.52(A)(4) through (A)(7) shall be installed and used.
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don_resqcapt19 said:
Dennis,
What code are you using. The word "available" in that code section was replaced with the word "present" to prevent the issue you are talking about.
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Well we are using the 2008 and NC is not pushing it. I know of no amendment to that code article but it is the way they want to interpret it. I have gotten most of my builders trained on this so I am using the rebar. It means a little more coordination but if the state would change their outlook believe me those builders will be making sure the cee is installed if they are made to jack hammer the footer.
 
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