ufer ground question

[JohnE]

After reading this thread, I'm confused. I don't see the exact argument that George and Robert are having. If anyone clears it up, I'd chime in. Haven't you guys both agreed that if a rebar is in a new footing, it must be used? Even if it is mistakenly poured in without connection to GEC? I must be missing something.

 

[George Stolz]

I am under the impression that Robert believes that if a CEE (as in rebar) is present in a foundation, and gets encased before there is a connection made to it for the electrical system, then it can remain undisturbed per the exception.

As in, nobody would have to jackhammer out the CEE on a new construction project if it was missed.

That is what I perceived the argument to be about.

I have stated myself that if a CEE is not already present...

Sparky Joe is the party suggesting the ufer is mandatory ... no matter what.

That would be incorrect, as I mentioned before. It is only required to be used if it is part of the inherent design of the foundation. We're not required to add one if one does not already exist.

...then one is not required to be installed.

It could be Robert thought I was saying that a CEE is required no matter what, but that is not what I said.

Perhaps Robert can chime in and we can clear this up. It could be we were doing the old "The grass is green!" - "No, the sky is blue!" argument.

 

[robertwilber]

I am under the impression that Robert believes that if a CEE (as in rebar) is present in a foundation, and gets encased before there is a connection made to it for the electrical system, then it can remain undisturbed per the exception.

As in, nobody would have to jackhammer out the CEE on a new construction project if it was missed.

That is what I perceived the argument to be about.

I have stated myself that if a CEE is not already present...


...then one is not required to be installed.

It could be Robert thought I was saying that a CEE is required no matter what, but that is not what I said.

Perhaps Robert can chime in and we can clear this up. It could be we were doing the old "The grass is green!" - "No, the sky is blue!" argument.

Thanks guys!
I was distracted by the static elsewhere. Someone insisted that a UFER [CEE] was mandatory. My point was that it was NOT mandatory, just that it had to be included IF PRESENT. The confusion there led to misunderstanding here.
I posted the inquiry, because [contrary to appearances] I AM willing to be wrong, provided I can be disabused of my beliefs. I hoped to have my perceptions confirmed, or corrected. ... and it takes more than yelling and bravado to change my mind.
It turned out that I was arguing fine points with a kid born after I was made a crew foreman.
We were actually doing the: "The grass is green. Will you tell this guy the sky is also blue?" thing.

 

[George Stolz]

I posted the inquiry, because [contrary to appearances] I AM willing to be wrong, provided I can be disabused of my beliefs.

That's a good trait, one I hope I share with you.

I hoped to have my perceptions confirmed, or corrected. ... and it takes more than yelling and bravado to change my mind.

If you thought I was yelling, sorry for giving that impression. I was getting increasingly frustrated at the appearance that you were not listening.

It turned out that I was arguing fine points with a kid born after I was made a crew foreman.

That stings. :roll:

Anyway, if you'd like to do more research of the ROPs and ROCs on your own, they can be found for free on the NFPA website.

 

[robertwilber]

If you thought I was yelling, sorry for giving that impression. I was getting increasingly frustrated at the appearance that you were not listening.

No George, I didn't think you were yelling. It's just that the headache I had from banging my head against the wall was making everything sound louder ...

Merry Christmas

 

[JohnE]

So, I'm still a little confused. You guys agree, right?

And if so then I agree that CEE must be used if present. Even if concrete was mistakenly poured prior to connection to GEC. And CEE is not mandatory unless it is present due to rebar in footing, etc.


And with all due respect Robert, I can't stand when someone brings up George's age since all of his arguments are substantiated with code references. I'll go so far as to say his age is an asset, since he doesn't have to get past all the old wives tales, assumptions, and accepted but non-compliant standard practices that those of us with 20 plus years had ingrained.

And I'm quite sure he has already spent more time reading code than nearly every electrician I've met or done inspections for.

John.

 

[robertwilber]

now, now John ...
don't go gettin' yer knickers in a twist ...
It wasn't GEORGE'S youth I was talking about ... [didn't know how old he was 'til I looked after your comment] George may be young, but has adult affect, unlike many folks older than him [speaking of no party present]. Intellect is not limited to antiquarians, and ignorance is not showered on youth alone, but the ignorant youth will only grow to ignorant [and arrogant] old age [provided he lives long enough] unless enlightened by accident, evolution, or intentional external intervention. Our society no longer approves of the forcible correction of the folly of youth, but I digress ...
Actually, John, we have an accord ...
Merry Christmas

 

[JohnE]

Robert,

I'm glad we are in agreement. Sorry if I misunderstood your position.

And Merry Christmas to you and your family, too.

John

 

[LarryFine]

I'm an old fart, too. I've been doing electrical work for 35 years, if you start with the service change I did at 16; even longer if you count our toolshed that I wired when I was 12.