Ufer ground requirment

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jackreese108

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We are doing a residential home with a concrete foundation in California. Code requires a Ufer ground, 30' 4 gauge copper wire embedded in the footing, and the inspectors always looks for this.

However, the property has the main panel in the front, and the panel at the house is a sub-panel. So, I would not want to have a ground at the sub-panel when the main panel is properly grounded. But the inspector will probably not know this and even if I try and explain it, in the end he will probably require that it is there or I'll fail the inspection.

My question is, am I correct that not just that I do not need a ground in this situation but it would actually be unsafe? And is it likely, in your experience that the inspector will actually know this?
 
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Perhaps I misunderstood your situation. If the main panel in the house is a subpanel, meaning it is fed from another remote panel, then you need a ufer at this panel. BTW, it is 20' of #4 not 30'

I guess I am still confused by your setup.
 
jackreese108 said:
We are doing a residential home with a concrete foundation in California. Code requires a Ufer ground, 30' 4 gauge copper wire embedded in the footing, and the inspectors always looks for this.

However, the property has the main panel in the front, and the panel at the house is a sub-panel. So, I would not want to have a ground at the sub-panel when the main panel is properly grounded. But the inspector will probably not know this and even if I try and explain it, in the end he will probably require that it is there or I'll fail the inspection.

My question is, am I correct that not just that I do not need a ground in this situation but it would actually be unsafe? And is it likely, in your experience that the inspector will actually know this?
Click to expand...

Welcome to the forum. :)

You need to clarify some of your terminology because as Dennis stated we're having a hard time deciphering what your installing. The word ground is too generic, are you asking about the Grounding Electrode Conductor (GEC) that runs from the service to the Concrete Encased Electrode (CEE)?
 
I can't tell if he has a 3 wire feeder going to a house panel or what? I assume he is sleeping since he is on Ca. time
 
jackreese108 said:
We are doing a residential home with a concrete foundation in California. Code requires a Ufer ground, 30' 4 gauge copper wire embedded in the footing, and the inspectors always looks for this.

However, the property has the main panel in the front, and the panel at the house is a sub-panel. So, I would not want to have a ground at the sub-panel when the main panel is properly grounded. But the inspector will probably not know this and even if I try and explain it, in the end he will probably require that it is there or I'll fail the inspection.

My question is, am I correct that not just that I do not need a ground in this situation but it would actually be unsafe? And is it likely, in your experience that the inspector will actually know this?
Click to expand...

You seem to be saying that the house panel is supplied by a feeder from a separate structure. A grounding electrode system is required at such separate structure, and the feeder will require separate grounded and equipment grounding conductors to be installed - the GEC must land on the EGC at the main disconnecting means of the supplied structure.

What do you think is unsafe about this?
 
Sorry for the lack of detail.

Coming onto the property, from pge, there is a free standing main metered 400 amp panel. The house they want built will be one of other structures. So the 400 amp main metered panel at the front of the property will feed more than one building/house.

So, the house we are currently building for them will have a panel at the house, being fed from the main panel, but it will be a sub-panel, obviously. The main panel has a 10' 3/4" copper rod as the ground. I know it is an unsafe practice to have a another ground at your sub, but I just want to make sure that the ufer ground is not some special case (which I cannot imagine why it would be), as I've never had a situation where the main panel was not at the house.

Is not having the ground at the sub a code requirement? I'd like to be able to point this out to the inspector if so. I know it's not a big deal to just install the ufer and then never hook it to the panel, but I guess I am the type that hates doing things for no good reason. And in this case the only reason I would be doing it would be to appease the inspector. Otherwise I'm sure he is going to argue with me about it, and in the end say that I have to have it, or delay the inspection while he looks into it. In either case this will cause a delay which I do not want. But I could get an inspector that actually knows about all this.

Thanks for responding.
 
jackreese108 said:
Sorry for the lack of detail.

Coming onto the property, from pge, there is a free standing main metered 400 amp panel. The house they want built will be one of other structures. So the 400 amp main metered panel at the front of the property will feed more than one building/house.

So, the house we are currently building for them will have a panel at the house, being fed from the main panel, but it will be a sub-panel, obviously. The main panel has a 10' 3/4" copper rod as the ground. I know it is an unsafe practice to have a another ground at your sub, but I just want to make sure that the ufer ground is not some special case (which I cannot imagine why it would be), as I've never had a situation where the main panel was not at the house.

Is not having the ground at the sub a code requirement? I'd like to be able to point this out to the inspector if so. I know it's not a big deal to just install the ufer and then never hook it to the panel, but I guess I am the type that hates doing things for no good reason. And in this case the only reason I would be doing it would be to appease the inspector. Otherwise I'm sure he is going to argue with me about it, and in the end say that I have to have it, or delay the inspection while he looks into it. In either case this will cause a delay which I do not want. But I could get an inspector that actually knows about all this.

Thanks for responding.
Click to expand...

It is not an unsafe practice to install a grounding electrode at the house. A grounding electrode is required at all structures supplied by a feeder.
250.32 Buildings or Structures Supplied by a Feeder(s) or
Branch Circuit(s).
(A) Grounding Electrode. Building(s) or structure(s)
supplied by feeder(s) or branch circuit(s) shall have a grounding
electrode or grounding electrode system installed in
accordance with Part III of Article 250.

The grounding electrode can be one of the types listed in 250.52(A)(1) through (8).
It is never required to install a Ufer, but if one exists it must be connected and used a a grounding electrode per 250.50.
 
Jack you do have to have the ufer connected to the panel and you need a 4 wire feeder from the 400 amp meter main. I don't understand why you think it isn't necessary.
 
jackreese108 said:
Sorry for the lack of detail.

...
...
Is not having the ground at the sub a code requirement?

Thanks for responding.
Click to expand...
What is required by code (and generally enforced by inspector) is that you do not make a bond between the grounded conductor (neutral in your case) and the ground bus (where your branch EGCs, incoming feeder EGC, and Ground Electrode Conductors like the UFER connection meet.)
The subpanel you use must have separate bus bars for the two purposes, and if they are initially connected by a jumper or green screw you must remove that connection.
 
jackreese108 said:
Sorry for the lack of detail.

Coming onto the property, from pge, there is a free standing main metered 400 amp panel. The house they want built will be one of other structures. So the 400 amp main metered panel at the front of the property will feed more than one building/house.

So, the house we are currently building for them will have a panel at the house, being fed from the main panel, but it will be a sub-panel, obviously. The main panel has a 10' 3/4" copper rod as the ground. I know it is an unsafe practice to have a another ground at your sub, but I just want to make sure that the ufer ground is not some special case (which I cannot imagine why it would be), as I've never had a situation where the main panel was not at the house.

Is not having the ground at the sub a code requirement? I'd like to be able to point this out to the inspector if so. I know it's not a big deal to just install the ufer and then never hook it to the panel, but I guess I am the type that hates doing things for no good reason. And in this case the only reason I would be doing it would be to appease the inspector. Otherwise I'm sure he is going to argue with me about it, and in the end say that I have to have it, or delay the inspection while he looks into it. In either case this will cause a delay which I do not want. But I could get an inspector that actually knows about all this.

Thanks for responding.
Click to expand...
It is somewhat arguable if there is a good purpose to have such electrode, but NEC does require a grounding electrode system at such a separate building. If it is service supplied then you connect it to the grounded (neutral in most cases) conductor at the the service equipment. If it is feeder supplied then you connect it to the equipment grounding conductor.

What you are not supposed to do is connect the GEC to the grounded (conductor) or bond the equipment grounding conductor to the grounded conductor beyond the service equipment - doing those things does allow for stray neutral currents on otherwise non current carrying items.
 
Dennis Alwon said:
Jack you do have to have the ufer connected to the panel and you need a 4 wire feeder from the 400 amp meter main. I don't understand why you think it isn't necessary.
Click to expand...

Yes, I understand I need a 4 wire feeder from the main, one of those wires is a ground correct?

GoldDigger said:
What is required by code (and generally enforced by inspector) is that you do not make a bond between the grounded conductor (neutral in your case) and the ground bus (where your branch EGCs, incoming feeder EGC, and Ground Electrode Conductors like the UFER connection meet.)
Click to expand...

And not to bond the neutral bar to the ground bar on sub-panels.

But if my sub-panel is using the main panel ground why do I need a ground at the sub?
 
jackreese108 said:
Yes, I understand I need a 4 wire feeder from the main, one of those wires is a ground correct?



And not to bond the neutral bar to the ground bar on sub-panels.

But if my sub-panel is using the main panel ground why do I need a ground at the sub?
Click to expand...
Read infinity's reply as many times as you need until it sinks in otherwise you are not going to get the answers you need.

infinity said:
Welcome to the forum. :)

You need to clarify some of your terminology because as Dennis stated we're having a hard time deciphering what your installing. The word ground is too generic, are you asking about the Grounding Electrode Conductor (GEC) that runs from the service to the Concrete Encased Electrode (CEE)?
Click to expand...
 
jackreese108 said:
Yes, I understand I need a 4 wire feeder from the main, one of those wires is a ground correct?



And not to bond the neutral bar to the ground bar on sub-panels.

But if my sub-panel is using the main panel ground why do I need a ground at the sub?
Click to expand...

Every separate structure needs to have a grounding electrode conductor or be connected to one in some way if there is a panel involved. If there is a ufer then that is all you probably need so just connect it to the panel's equipment grounding conductor bar.
 
jackreese108 said:
Sorry for the lack of detail.

The main panel has a 10' 3/4" copper rod as the ground. I know it is an unsafe practice to have a another ground at your sub, but I just want to make sure that the ufer ground is not some special case (which I cannot imagine why it would be), as I've never had a situation where the main panel was not at the house.

Thanks for responding.
Click to expand...

I know its electrician lingo, but please avoid the term ground, it means nothing in the NEC, IE I need to pull a ground, or install a ground or ground this panel. All would be different and defined terms. The NEC definition of ground is "the earth", by the way.
 
jackreese108 said:
I know it is an unsafe practice to have a another ground at your sub,
Click to expand...

This is just plain false. You can have as many grounding electrodes as you want wherever you want them.

What you cannot have is a N-G bond at more than one point (with a possible exception at the service).

You also cannot connect your grounding electrodes to the neutral at more than one point. Downstream grounding electrodes would be connected to the equipment ground conductor, not the neutral.

The code requires a grounding electrode system at every structure served by a feeder or a service.
 
petersonra said:
This is just plain false. You can have as many grounding electrodes as you want wherever you want them.

What you cannot have is a N-G bond at more than one point (with a possible exception at the service).

You also cannot connect your grounding electrodes to the neutral at more than one point. Downstream grounding electrodes would be connected to the equipment ground conductor, not the neutral.

The code requires a grounding electrode system at every structure served by a feeder or a service.
Click to expand...

I agree you cannot "over ground" the system, the key is to ensure that the neutral is only grounded once.
 
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