UFER ground
- Thread starter sprkinit
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rcarroll
Senior Member
- Location
- Fort Collins, Colorado
I've never heard of waterproof concrete. Here they spray the foundation walls below grade w/ some type of damp proof. But, the bottom of the footers is still in direct contact w/ the earth. If that's the case, & there is at least 20' of 1/2" of rebar installed, you need to use it for your CEE.
cycotcskir
Senior Member
Ufer grounds use the moisture in concrete and the doping of the surrounding soil. I would say that it probably would decrease the efficacy, but it may still be at an acceptible level.
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resistance
Senior Member
- Location
- WA
I've never heard of waterproof either, but here is a small note on it:
Concrete, as strong as it may be, cannot stop water from seeping through it and forming cracks. The U.S. Company Penetron has developed a series of powder-like waterproof materials, which can protect concrete from even the strongest of elements. Penetron is a surface-applied crystalline material composed of Portland cement, specially treated quartz sand, and a compound of active chemicals. It is designed to protect a structure against rainwater, seawater, wastewater and aggressive groundwater, as well as from many
aggressive chemical solutions.
ohmhead
Senior Member
- Location
- ORLANDO FLA
Well the uffer ground is not really a option in my way of thinking one does not just use a uffer ground alone .
A home or a building needs a good point to earth ground give it the best use a ground rod it is better to go to earth than to a concrete footer . Thats just common sense and old electrical thinking .
Heres why look at what we do in commercial work we attach a uffer to rebar by cadwelding its just a extra point for the steel structure to attach electrical grounding to but is it a good ground yes and no it just another point or connection point .
you can read the code book and see plates steel uffer and others but ill stick with the ground rod in a home as most are made of wood not steel columns or steel structures so your just bonding your footer and not much else . i trust the earth more so around your home more of a area of protection . Take care
vinster888
Senior Member
- Location
- Nature Coast of Florida
i believe it has something to do with surface area. a 10' long 5/8" rod has about 300 sq in of surface and the slabs begin in the 100's of feet of surface area. plus there are many types of sand/soil that is not very conductive.
ericsherman37
Senior Member
- Location
- Oregon Coast
If it's there you gotta utilize it anyway.. I don't think the code makes any specifications on what type of concrete a Ufer has to be in. If there's doubts I'd supplement the Ufer with a ground rod or three. Better safe than sorry.
ericsherman37
Senior Member
- Location
- Oregon Coast
And for the record, that crap doesn't sound very environmentally friendly.
e57
Senior Member
- Location
- San Francisco, CA
A ufer installation is THE BEST ground you're going to get. Short of engineering 6 dozen rods in some pattern to do the same.... (Whatshisface) Ufer developed them for places where rods were not cutting the mustard.
AND - in many places a CEE is REQUIRED when doing any foundation work - new or even replacement of partial foundations - when in contact with the earth. That seems to be the question of the OP? If water-proofed is it suitable for a Ufer?
I have seen a number of "water-proofed" foundations and slabs - but all were with membranes that were with concrete activated bonding agents on plastic membrane sheeting. On a few of those, we put the CEE in the grade-beams that were below the water-proofing membrane, and drain curtains. On the ones that had no un-isolated concrete that could qualify for a CEE we skipped it - since there is no contact with earth, there is therefore no electrode to connect to.
As for "water-proofed concrete" I have not heard of a mix like that, but could not say for sure. Then again - you can make a boat hull out of concrete - and yes it will float. I did some work on house boats in the past.... And this is also why you never leave a swimming pool empty.
FYI the formulas for concrete were 'lost' for most of modern history, and there are many modern new mixes out there that change.... I would write an RFI to the GC, and contractor for the foundation to find out more. Hard enough keeping up with our industry - nevermind all the others.
e57
Senior Member
- Location
- San Francisco, CA
Niether is regular cement. It's pretty caustic.
ericsherman37
Senior Member
- Location
- Oregon Coast
ohmhead
Senior Member
- Location
- ORLANDO FLA
Well we can see how concrete is more conductive when new but lets look at it over the years it drys it cracks the rebar becomes unattached or rust internally .
A concrete encased electrode to me is a additional method not the best and water proofing is only done on the sides of a footer or foundation in commercial work the footer of column pads are painted with a black coating of material then wrapped with a rubber membrane and then cloth material not the bottom its in contact with the soil or earth .
Just not seeing that rebar or concrete is a better conductor ?
When lighting strikes ?
When years pass does resistance change the nature of concrete to earth ?
Question is a concrete encased electrode better than earth if so explain this in detail ?
Question define ufer ground is it just a rebar connection or is it a copper wire run on the bottom of a footer ?
If its run on or near the bottom why thats closer to earth so why use the rebar or embed it ?.
And the op is in a home with a water proofing system look at that first not a commercial area of work to me thats different then a steel structure when it comes to grounding and protection .
We like to know what the experts think take care use a ground rod its not better !
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- Location
- Chapel Hill, NC
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Contractor
ohmhead, I also believe you are way off base. The life expectancy of a ground rod is only 20 years. Here is a report on that info. I don't have statistics on a ufer but even if the concrete cracks I still think you have a better connection to ground.
I reported a test I did on the same site with ground rod and ufer. I did a 3 point test to ground on 2 rods and had 98 ohms ( I believe) while my ufer was 13 ohms. Now for all those years I will take my chances on a ufer anyday.
I reported a test I did on the same site with ground rod and ufer. I did a 3 point test to ground on 2 rods and had 98 ohms ( I believe) while my ufer was 13 ohms. Now for all those years I will take my chances on a ufer anyday.
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hardworkingstiff
Senior Member
- Location
- Wilmington, NC
Wouldn't the question be whether the waterproofing material was conductive or not? If it's conductive, then we don't have a basis for this discussion, right?
iaov
Senior Member
- Location
- Rhinelander WI
This is not what many years of research has shown. The research has shown the Ufer ground to be an even more reliable, much longer lasting system than ground rods.
This is a must read.
This is a must read.
If you think that a Ground Rod is better then a UFFER ground you are mis-informed and must read this link http://www.psihq.com/iread/ufergrnd.htm
The older a UFFER gets the more it will leach conductive salts into the soil making the ground better over time.
This is a must read.
If you think that a Ground Rod is better then a UFFER ground you are mis-informed and must read this link http://www.psihq.com/iread/ufergrnd.htm
The older a UFFER gets the more it will leach conductive salts into the soil making the ground better over time.
e57
Senior Member
- Location
- San Francisco, CA
It dries over periods in excess of 30 years, and a special note is a misnommer IMO. That the CEE is only the part described in the NEC, as method(s) to contact with the concrete, and therefore the earth in contact with it. ALL rebar, and ALL concrete becomes the electrode in the broad sense. Even - in the defined sense, it is still superior to a rod, or rods... And far more reliable and survivable.
Commercial, residential, or industrial makes no difference on the arguement - much the way it should not when speaking of any construction method or trade IMO. You're an Electrian or you are not IMO. And likewise you have an electrode or you don't. If you have concrete in contact with earth - you have an electrode, and that electrode needs to be connected to the grounding system - as code requires ALL electrodes present be connected. Be it water, plates, rods etc. And lacking some electrods will require others be made to add to the system. If a CEE is present you will note - others are not required to be made.
Good information at a decent price....
:grin:
Once again - Commercial or the involment of steel framing in the structure makes no difference.* Water-proofing may or it may not.... Depends on the method and materials.
*
If there is a concrete footing - pier, or foundation in contact with earth 20' or more in length - it is an electrode, and needs to be connected.
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ohmhead
Senior Member
- Location
- ORLANDO FLA
ground rod or ufer
ground rod or ufer
Well the report about the ufer lasting longer yes it would if its embedded in concrete and not exposed to the direct soil as a ground rod is totally exposed to the earth weather and worst conditions there report is one sided.
But a copper clad rod will last as long or longer !
Ive seen rods over 50 years still in good shape not like there picture in that report .
We now must change the code book to only use a ufer as its better because Erico says so .
Thats because they sell cadwelding products and would love to sell attaching a ufer over a ground rod being clamped to a rod its called money .
Ive tested many rods delta and single rods three point test but our ufer ground will always give a better test as its more of a ground plane to earth .But i still feel we need depth to earth to distribute a strike or major electrical fault for a good path to ground . lets think of a strike or major fault ufer alone is not enough .
A ufer is only good for one purpose to give equal potential in a sub station grid . not in your standard home residential ground system . Take care
ground rod or ufer
Well the report about the ufer lasting longer yes it would if its embedded in concrete and not exposed to the direct soil as a ground rod is totally exposed to the earth weather and worst conditions there report is one sided.
But a copper clad rod will last as long or longer !
Ive seen rods over 50 years still in good shape not like there picture in that report .
We now must change the code book to only use a ufer as its better because Erico says so .
Thats because they sell cadwelding products and would love to sell attaching a ufer over a ground rod being clamped to a rod its called money .
Ive tested many rods delta and single rods three point test but our ufer ground will always give a better test as its more of a ground plane to earth .But i still feel we need depth to earth to distribute a strike or major electrical fault for a good path to ground . lets think of a strike or major fault ufer alone is not enough .
A ufer is only good for one purpose to give equal potential in a sub station grid . not in your standard home residential ground system . Take care
- Location
- Massachusetts
Do you have any evidence at all to support that statement?
e57
Senior Member
- Location
- San Francisco, CA
Now what makes you think you can't just run a wire, or use a simple clamp like the rest of us.
While there are many flavors of ufer - my personal favorite is to run a full sized to the water with some simple tie wire to keep it in place in the pour. Water and suplimentary ground in the same shot - pure beauty!And IMO the commercial high horse you think you're on is just another pretty donkey.
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