UL, ETL. etc. listing question

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K8MHZ

K8MHZ

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Location
Michigan. It's a beautiful peninsula, I've looked
Occupation
Electrician
Is it legal to sell or install electrical equipment that is not listed by an NRTL?

By equipment I mean an assembly. In particular lighting controls, but this is also a general question.

If it's perfectly legal to sell non listed gear, why bother with the listing?

If it's not legal, how are people getting away with it?

Or is this something that varies from state to state or jurisdiction to jurisdiction?
 
Excluding specific items required to be listed in the NEC, (assuming the NEC is the adopted code) listing requirements are jurisdiction to jurisdiction.

Roger
 
roger said:
Excluding specific items required to be listed in the NEC, (assuming the NEC is the adopted code) listing requirements are jurisdiction to jurisdiction.

Roger
Click to expand...

We are under NEC 2008. It looks like all receptacles must be listed. Also luminaires.

It would be nice to have a list of required listings without having to go through the entire book looking for three words.

I didn't think to, but maybe searching the handbook CD for 'shall be listed' may work.
 
But assembling several listed items to make one piece of equipment doesn't mean that piece of equipment is listed. Which is often the starting point for debate.

Where does individual items come into play and when does completed assembly come into play?
 
Ahh, for the good old days ...

Once upon a time, everyone understood that it was simply wrong to try to write laws for your commercial gain, to force folks to do business with you.

Of course, we've gone away from that a wee bit. Every code cycle now seems to have more provisions that appear designed to favor on business or another. Pity that.

Even our buddies at UL, in the days before ETL and all the other competetors, emphasised the value their lable added to a product. Like Consumers' Reports, UL stressed it's focus on safety, its' independence, and its' own inspections. The gist of the meaasge was: Look for our lable and be confident - or don't bother, and worry. For the most part, it worked pretty well.

Is it legal to buy/sell ....? Excuse me, but what happened to out free market? Since when need we ever ask if something as mundane as a light fixture was 'legal?' Tell, me, Kamerad, what is the date, so I can celebrate the anniversary? I'm pretty sure it's not July 4.
 
renosteinke said:
Ahh, for the good old days ...

Once upon a time, everyone understood that it was simply wrong to try to write laws for your commercial gain, to force folks to do business with you.

Of course, we've gone away from that a wee bit. Every code cycle now seems to have more provisions that appear designed to favor on business or another. Pity that.

Even our buddies at UL, in the days before ETL and all the other competetors, emphasised the value their lable added to a product. Like Consumers' Reports, UL stressed it's focus on safety, its' independence, and its' own inspections. The gist of the meaasge was: Look for our lable and be confident - or don't bother, and worry. For the most part, it worked pretty well.

Is it legal to buy/sell ....? Excuse me, but what happened to out free market? Since when need we ever ask if something as mundane as a light fixture was 'legal?' Tell, me, Kamerad, what is the date, so I can celebrate the anniversary? I'm pretty sure it's not July 4.
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That was just a question. No need to get schizo about it.

After a talk with a local AHJ, here is what I found out.

First, at ease, Reno. It's not illegal to sell any electrical device in Michigan. Sales are not covered by any safety codes. At least here.

However, it IS illegal to connect any device not listed with an NRTL if required by adopted code.

Receptacles and luminaries must be listed. No exceptions. Devices that are listed, must be used according to the listing. For instance, a controller meant for and listed as an industrial controller cannot legally be used in a dwelling.

Also, from the AHJ, if a required non listed device is connected, that is the wrongdoing of the installer.

So......

It's OK to make a lighting controller with a 240 volt fed non listed receptacle that accepts a 120 volt plug. 406.2 (A), 406.3 (F)

Like this:

xplug-250.jpg


It's OK to sell it.

It's OK to buy it.

It's OK to mount it on the wall and plug a 120 volt plug with a 120 volt load into it.

It's not OK to connect it to the electrical system.

Maker, seller and owner are all off the hook. Sparky gets the blame. It's always the electrician's fault.

:)
 
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Honest answers, please.

How many of you here would expect to see 240 volts at a receptacle like pictured above in a brand new lighting controller?

I never saw one until the other day, and that is the reason for this thread.

Oh, and a head's up, to. They are out there.
 
With few exceptions, the NEC does NOT require that equipment be "listed". It does require that equipment be "approved". The definition (Article 100) of approved is "acceptable to the Authority Having Jurisdiction". There are some exceptions such as "luminaires and lamp-holders" which are required to be listed, but the list of things that require "listing" is fairly short. The AHJ will often base his "approval" on the listing but listing is NOT required for approval.
 
haskindm said:
With few exceptions, the NEC does NOT require that equipment be "listed". It does require that equipment be "approved". The definition (Article 100) of approved is "acceptable to the Authority Having Jurisdiction". There are some exceptions such as "luminaires and lamp-holders" which are required to be listed, but the list of things that require "listing" is fairly short. The AHJ will often base his "approval" on the listing but listing is NOT required for approval.
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So far, the short list is luminaires, lamp holders and receptacles. As luck would have it, that is what brought on my curiousity. An unlisted receptacle.
 
K8MHZ said:
So far, the short list is luminaires, lamp holders and receptacles. As luck would have it, that is what brought on my curiousity. An unlisted receptacle.
Click to expand...
See all the conduit and raceway xxx.6 article sections, and switch rated breakers for some more to add to you list.

Roger
 
roger said:
See all the conduit and raceway xxx.6 article sections, and switch rated breakers for some more to add to you list.

Roger
Click to expand...

Only switch rated breakers need to be listed. Breakers that are not used to switch fluorescent or HID lighting are not required to be listed. Interesting that regular switches (that are not also breakers) are not required to be listed....
 
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