UL Listed Cable for LEDs??

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Jerramundi

Jerramundi

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Licensed Residential Electrician
Suggestions for 18-22AWG 2 conductor cables (preferably tin-plated) for soldering to LED light strip?
I'm tempted to just grab some thermostat wire, but figured I'd check with the pro's first :)

The best I got so for in terms of listed products is CMR/CL3R, but not listed for the proper purpose.

You can find a ton on Amazon, but none are listed products... and the ones that are, well... I'm not sure I trust Amazon's specifications sheets, haha.
 
LarryFine said:
I use jacketed, in-wall rated speaker wire. Copper solders just fine; strip, tin, trim, and solder
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That's what I'm looking at. CMR/CL3R is speaker wire. Just anxious about it because it's a permitted job and it is technically, "speaker wire."

No issues with it not being tin-plated? Wets okay?
 
petersonra said:
It does not have to be listed for use with leds. Just listed for class 2 circuits.
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Well, I'm looking at Southwire's website since they have a neatly organized list of available conductors.

The only product there that I've found (so far) actually listed as a "Class 2 Power Limited Circuit Cable" is the ROMEX® SIMpull® Low-Voltage Control & Signal Cable.

All the other low voltage, multi-conductor cables (CMP/CL3P, CMR/CL3R, and CM/CL3... i.e. various types of "audio" cables, plenum rated, riser rated, and wet location rated respectively) don't say anything about being listed for Class 2 circuits... and I worry that a cable listed for use in audio would violate manufacturer's specifications if utilized for LED lighting... even though it would more than likely function without a problem. These cables do have an interesting statement under (1) Compliance (E) Suitable Use that simply says "General purpose low voltage and power-limited systems circuits to NEC 725," which makes me think one could argue their suitability for such an installation as LED lighting.

I'm no fool. I no I could utilize thermostat wire and be absolutely fine in terms of functionality. I just figured I'd take this opportunity to try and find the technically "appropriate" cable.
 
Jerramundi said:
All the other low voltage, multi-conductor cables (CMP/CL3P, CMR/CL3R, and CM/CL3... i.e. various types of "audio" cables, plenum rated, riser rated, and wet location rated respectively) don't say anything about being listed for Class 2 circuits...
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See NEC Table 725.154(A). Basically any Class 3 cable can be used as a Class 2 cable.

Cheers, Wayne
 
infinity said:
Have you looked up what CL3P is listed for?
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I'm looking a less specific cut sheet for "Low Voltage Cable: Multi-conductor - Plenum Rated - Shielded Cable" on Southwire's website that seems to cover CMP/CL3P as well as a few others.

According to this cut sheet, it's applications include "Remote Control, Signalling, and Power-Limited circuits per NEC Article 725 22AWG through 16 AWG also communication circuits per NEC Article 800. Security, sound and audio, speaker cable, public address, intercom, sound reinforcement, alarm and access control circuits and power-limited controls. Where routed in plenum spaces."

The main distinction between it and other similar cables seems to be for "where routed in plenum spaces."

The only thing that makes think it could possibly be "suitable" is further down the cut sheet it says "Compliance (E) Suitable Use: General purpose low voltage and power limited systems' circuits to NEC Article 725."

 
infinity said:
Have you looked up what CL3P is listed for?
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Personally, I'm leaning towards the "Romex® Brand SIMpull® Control & Signal Cable" as it actually explicitly states that its' suitable "...in lighting control and dimming applications..." Although I would prefer a cable listed for wet locations for my particular application which has me considering CM/CL3.

 
wwhitney said:
See NEC Table 725.154(A). Basically any Class 3 cable can be used as a Class 2 cable.

Cheers, Wayne
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I'm looking at the table... and while I see that the individual various categories include BOTH CL2 and CL3 cables, I don't think this means that CL3 can be used as CL2... unless there's something I'm missing. It's addressing the various LOCATIONS that CL2 and CL3 can be installed.

For example. CL2P and CL3P can both be installed in the SAME LOCATION (e.g. "fabricated ducts"), but again I don't think this particular table can be translated as the two are interchangeable. Maybe elsewhere in the code it says that, but that's not what I get from Table 725.154(A)

I have read that CL2 and CL3 can be utilized as Class 1 if following Class 1 wiring methods per Chapter 3, but require re-identification.
 
Jerramundi said:
I'm looking at the table... and while I see that the individual various categories include BOTH CL2 and CL3 cables, I don't think this means that CL3 can be used as CL2
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Yes, it does. The title is "Cable Substitutions." There's even a nice little hierarchy diagram.

Take the line for CL2R (class 2 riser). The table tells you you can instead use CMP, CL3P, CL2P, CMR, or CL3R. That's because P > R (plenum cable is a stricter standard than riser cable, so all plenum cable is rated for use in a riser) and M > 3 > 2 (class 3 is a stricter standard than class 2, so all class 3 cable can be used for class 2).

Cheers, Wayne
 
wwhitney said:
Yes, it does. The title is "Cable Substitutions." There's even a nice little hierarchy diagram.

Take the line for CL2R (class 2 riser). The table tells you you can instead use CMP, CL3P, CL2P, CMR, or CL3R. That's because P > R (plenum cable is a stricter standard than riser cable, so all plenum cable is rated for use in a riser) and M > 3 > 2 (class 3 is a stricter standard than class 2, so all class 3 cable can be used for class 2).

Cheers, Wayne
Click to expand...
Ah I see it now. I was looking at "Table 725.154" (2014 NEC) titled "Applications of Listed Class 2, Class..." but on the previous page there is "Figure 725.154(A) titled "Cable Substitution Hierarchy."

You're correct.
 
wwhitney said:
Yes, it does. The title is "Cable Substitutions." There's even a nice little hierarchy diagram.

Take the line for CL2R (class 2 riser). The table tells you you can instead use CMP, CL3P, CL2P, CMR, or CL3R. That's because P > R (plenum cable is a stricter standard than riser cable, so all plenum cable is rated for use in a riser) and M > 3 > 2 (class 3 is a stricter standard than class 2, so all class 3 cable can be used for class 2).

Cheers, Wayne
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So basically I can utilize CL3P or CL3R for General Purpose Class 2 Circuits. I still get hung up on the "Remote Control, Signaling, and Power Limited" verbiage. The only way I can see this being acceptable is if my Class 2 Transformer has a built in OCPD (i.e. power limited) or is close enough to the 20A OCPD that it could be considered one unit.
 
You're giving me a headache. As long as your LED power supply is listed on the label as Class 2, YOU CAN USE ANY CL2 OR CL3 LISTED CABLE.

If you need plenum it would be CL2P or CL3P.

Most cables are multi-rated CM/CL2 meaning communications multi-purpose and CL2.

Manufacturer descriptions are just suggested uses, not an exhaustive list of what a cable can be used for (I've not seen one cable yet that says Jerrimundi's LEDs). As long as it says CL2 or CL3 you are golden.

And you definitely DON'T want shielded.

-Hal
 
hbiss said:
You're giving me a headache. As long as your LED power supply is listed on the label as Class 2, YOU CAN USE ANY CL2 OR CL3 LISTED CABLE.

If you need plenum it would be CL2P or CL3P.

Most cables are multi-rated CM/CL2 meaning communications multi-purpose and CL2.

Manufacturer descriptions are just suggested uses, not an exhaustive list of what a cable can be used for (I've not seen one cable yet that says Jerrimundi's LEDs). As long as it says CL2 or CL3 you are golden.

And you definitely DON'T want shielded.

-Hal
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I got that much so far. Thanks. It's just "Remote Control, Signaling, and Power Limited" that still kinda trips me up. During my training years CL2 and CL3 were never explained to me in detail... it was always this is doorbell wire or this is thermostat wire, shut up and install it, lol.

So yea, I still need to do some reading about Class 2 and 3 circuits, but I've selected a CM/CL3 communications wire for the project because it's suitable for wet environments.

Thanks to you all I now know (1) CL3 is a valid substitute for CL2, etc. and (2) just because it's marketed as "speaker wire," doesn't necessary mean that's it's only approved usage.
 
LarryFine said:
This is the stuff I use; gauge depending on load:

View attachment 2553494

www.homedepot.com

Southwire 500 ft. 16/2 Grey Stranded CU In-Wall CMR/CL3R Speaker Wire 56911445 - The Home Depot

Find the 500 ft. 16-Gauge In-Wall Speaker Cable 56911445, UL listed rated for in-wall use, this cable eliminates the need for extra wires around your speaker system from The Home Depot
www.homedepot.com
Click to expand...
You ever have to solder #16? I'm looking at having to do that and the wire gauge worries me. I'd prefer a smaller gauge, like #20/#22 and solid core, but for my purposes, I want to use a cable that is rated for wet locations, which seems to be far and few between and is leaving me with a #16 stranded wire cable.

I now understand that the wire you show here could be used as long the specifications dictate it's also for general purpose low voltage, which most speaker wire does... but it's all dry location :(
 
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