UL Listed Cable for LEDs??

[hbiss]

It's just "Remote Control, Signaling, and Power Limited" that still kinda trips me up. During my training years CL2 and CL3 were never explained to me in detail... it was always this is doorbell wire or this is thermostat wire, shut up and install it, lol.

The only thing that makes my head explode is when people use data cable (CAT5 or 6) for anything but data networking. Yeah, I know it says CL2 on it.

-Hal

 

[Jerramundi]

I'm a fan of this stuff:

Monoprice Speaker Wire, CL2 Rated, 2-Conductor, 18AWG, 1000ft, White - Monoprice.com

Get the most out of your home audio system with high quality, pure bare copper speaker wire from Monoprice™!Pure Bare Copper is a superior conductor to the copper clad aluminum (CCA) conductors

www.monoprice.com

SceneryDriver

Not a bad looking product. I like the white, jacketed cables as opposed to the thermostat cables as simply a personal preference... but I don't see a NRTL listing for your suggested product...

Why is it NEVER an electrician that completes these specification documents? *grumble, grumble*

 

[Jerramundi]

The only thing that makes my head explode is when people use data cable (CAT5 or 6) for anything but data networking. Yeah, I know it says CL2 on it.

-Hal

I would never even think to do such a thing... then again, I was worried about using thermostat wire, but clearly I was wrong about that as thermostat wiring is just one of the listed purposes for that type of cable. They just market it as such because that is it's most common application.

Probably a stupid question, but could you use CAT5 or CAT6 if it's CL2 with the proper wire gauge per load calculations and with insulation rated for the highest possible voltage applied? I honestly don't know if CAT5 or CAT6 goes up to 12VDC or 24VDC. I would assume it maxes out at like 10VDC.

The speaker wire being listed for "communication" and "audio" is what threw me off initially, but then I saw that it's also listed for general purpose low voltage.

 

[curt swartz]

We solder 18/2 to tape frequently. You could use 20/2 if its just a short jumper. You really have to watch voltage drop for low voltage lighting. Too many people think low voltage means you can use smaller wire but that is just the opposite.

What kind of strip are you soldering to that is wet location rated? Generally wet locations strips get made up by the manufacture so they are sealed.

Larry, you must be rich buying that wire from HD. My cost for name brand 16/2 at my supplier is about 1/2 that cost. I guess that's typical. I find HD substantially higher on 90% of the products they sell compared to a supply house.

As to Monoprice, I'm not a fan. I'm always hearing about how great their network cables are. Try finding any specs or test data on thier products like any other reputable manufacture has. You can't. They don't design, manufacture or test anything. They are just importing products from the cheapest Chinese factories they can find. Ohhh but they are the leader. They stated selling CAT7 cable 5+ years ago even though there was no standard.

 

[Jerramundi]

We solder 18/2 to tape frequently. You could use 20/2 if its just a short jumper. You really have to watch voltage drop for low voltage lighting. Too many people think low voltage means you can use smaller wire but that is just the opposite.

What kind of strip are you soldering to that is wet location rated? Generally wet locations strips get made up by the manufacture so they are sealed.

Larry, you must be rich buying that wire from HD. My cost for name brand 16/2 at my supplier is about 1/2 that cost. I guess that's typical. I find HD substantially higher on 90% of the products they sell compared to a supply house.

As to Monoprice, I'm not a fan. I'm always hearing about how great their network cables are. Try finding any specs or test data on thier products like any other reputable manufacture has. You can't. They don't design, manufacture or test anything. They are just importing products from the cheapest Chinese factories they can find. Ohhh but they are the leader. They stated selling CAT7 cable 5+ years ago even though there was no standard.

I need wet location rated, but can't find any cable smaller than #16 AWG that's rated for wet location use.

I'm not worried about VD, but I appreciate the reminder. The location with the LED strip lights is being fed by 240V/120V Step Down XFMR less than 10ft away that's giving me 117V on the secondary.

Then I'm running #10's between the 240V/120V XFMR, Secondary OCPD, and to the line side of the Class 2 Power Source. Then I'm running #12's from the secondary side of the Class 2 Power Source to a junction box next to the strip lights and it's looking like #16 to feed the strip lights.

I found a few suppliers with wet rated strip lights that allow for field cutting as long as you put the silicon cap on the end and seal it up with silicon again. If it's wet rated and the specifications claim it's field cuttable, I don't see a problem as long as you follow the manufacturer's instructions regarding resealing the end.

I was originally looking at 1,000 Bulbs submersible brand, but they said exactly what you're saying... once you cut it, the listing it violated.

 

[curt swartz]

You would be better off having Diode LED or other manufacture just make up the strips you need. I have them make up tape light all the time. Cost is minimal. I hope you time is worth something.

So this is for the same sign you have had multiple threads on? You are building this sign yourself? You had mentioned the LED driver had a relatively high input current. If so its not a Class 2 driver. You can get drivers that have multiple Class 2 outputs but I have never seen one that had higher that 300 watt input.

 

[Jerramundi]

You would be better off having Diode LED or other manufacture just make up the strips you need. I have them make up tape light all the time. Cost is minimal. I hope you time is worth something.

So this is for the same sign you have had multiple threads on? You are building this sign yourself? You had mentioned the LED driver had a relatively high input current. If so its not a Class 2 driver. You can get drivers that have multiple Class 2 outputs but I have never seen one that had higher that 300 watt input.

Unless I was working for a very wealthy client, I would NEVER even consider Diode LED.

They made my list initially, but the price is OUTRAGEOUS and getting a quote was near impossible. They wouldn't supply me with a direct quote as an EC. So I waited for them to supply me with a list of distributors in my area, which took like a week. Then I had to call multiple distributors, half of whom had no idea what I was talking about.

All said and done, for the two products of their's that I was looking at, it was something like $450 - $600 for 16ft.

And their warranty was weak. A higher price doesn't always mean better.

Flex Fire LEDs offers a 15 yr warranty for the 50,000 hr LED strips... and they're half the cost. UL Listed and all. Even Title 24 compliant.

 

[SceneryDriver]

You ever have to solder #16? I'm looking at having to do that and the wire gauge worries me. I'd prefer a smaller gauge, like #20/#22 and solid core, but for my purposes, I want to use a cable that is rated for wet locations, which seems to be far and few between and is leaving me with a #16 stranded wire cable.

I now understand that the wire you show here could be used as long the specifications dictate it's also for general purpose low voltage, which most speaker wire does... but it's all dry location

You really want to use 18ga or smaller. Anything larger becomes VERY difficult to solder to the tape's solder pads. Also, don't use solid wire; stranded only. Solid puts too much stress on the pads, and will tear them right off the tape.



ScenreyDriver

 

[SceneryDriver]

Unless I was working for a very wealthy client, I would NEVER even consider Diode LED.

They made my list initially, but the price is OUTRAGEOUS and getting a quote was near impossible. They wouldn't supply me with a direct quote as an EC. So I waited for them to supply me with a list of distributors in my area, which took like a week. Then I had to call multiple distributors, half of whom had no idea what I was talking about.

All said and done, for the two products of their's that I was looking at, it was something like $450 - $600 for 16ft.

And their warranty was weak. A higher price doesn't always mean better.

Flex Fire LEDs offers a 15 yr warranty for the 50,000 hr LED strips... and they're half the cost. UL Listed and all. Even Title 24 compliant.

Call Environmental Lights. If you buy in quantity, they tend to offer discounts.

www.environmentallights.com


SceneryDriver

 

[Jerramundi]

You really want to use 18ga or smaller. Anything larger becomes VERY difficult to solder to the tape's solder pads. Also, don't use solid wire; stranded only. Solid puts too much stress on the pads, and will tear them right off the tape.



ScenreyDriver

Really? I would think a smaller gauge solid core would be easier to solder. Huh.

 

[Jerramundi]

Call Environmental Lights. If you buy in quantity, they tend to offer discounts.

www.environmentallights.com


SceneryDriver

Yea, they're also on my list. Good catch.

Some good products, but the warranty is also kind of weak. I look for products whose warranty backs up a majority of the lifespan of the product... and that's Flex Fire LEDs and Superbright, at least in terms of my particular product.

I'll say it again, 50,000 hours is nothing if there's no warranty to back it up!

 

[Dennis Alwon]

This is the stuff I use; gauge depending on load:

View attachment 2553494

Southwire 500 ft. 16/2 Grey Stranded CU In-Wall CMR/CL3R Speaker Wire 56911445 - The Home Depot

This 500 ft. 16/2 Gray Stranded In-Wall CL3R Speaker Wire accommodates extensive indoor applications. Rated for in-wall use, this cable eliminates the need for extra wires around your speaker system. This wire is also UL Listed.

www.homedepot.com

I have used the speaker wire also however someone said it is only listed as speaker wire. I looked at speaker wire and this cable that is listed for led and they looked exactly the same.

 

[Jerramundi]

I have used the speaker wire also however someone said it is only listed as speaker wire. I looked at speaker wire and this cable that is listed for led and they looked exactly the same.

That cable is explicitly listed for "LED lighting?" Or just "general purpose low voltage?"

I've seen the "general purpose low voltage" and "power limited class 2" phrasing on Southwire's thermostat and speaker wires, which as long as it's class appropriate, wire gauge/amperage appropriate, and maximum applied voltage appropriate, is good in my book for LED lighting... thanks, in part, to what I've learned from this thread.

 

[Jerramundi]

I have used the speaker wire also however someone said it is only listed as speaker wire. I looked at speaker wire and this cable that is listed for led and they looked exactly the same.

I can't seem to link the model # provided by Home Depot to a product on Southwire's website. Personally, I feel better when I can link a model number directly to a manufacturer's spec doc explicitly approving what I'm trying to do for liability purposes, but I'm anal like that.

That's why I was looking at ROMEX® SIMpull® Low-Voltage Control & Signal Cable.... because manufacturer's spec doc explicitly uses the phrasing "...for use in lighting control and dimming applications..."

CMR/CL3R would be a Communications Multiconductor Cable, Riser (I've seen some say the M stands for Multipurpose, I'm not sure which is the more official answer)...

Looking under that category (see link below)... there is a CMR/CL3R that's 16/2 with gray insulation, but the model numbers don't match up.
Either way, the suitable uses for this category of products, beyond just as speaker wire, are clearly listed as:

1. General purpose low voltage and power-limited systems' circuits to NEC Article 725
2. 16 AWG and smaller also for communications circuits to NEC Article 800.

The "general purpose low voltage" is kinda vague, but enough for me to approve it for LED lighting.

https://www.mysouthwire.com/medias/sys_master/product-specifications/product-specifications/h21/h92/8856948768798/CVDE-Web-Catalog-Multiconductor-Riser-Rated-Shielded.pdf

 

[wwhitney]

Is "speaker wire" even a listing category? Isn't it just as listed CL3 and marketed as speaker wire? I thought at long as it's listed as CL3, you can use it for anything that requires CL3 wire, it doesn't have to be an application described in the documentation.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[SceneryDriver]

Yea, they're also on my list. Good catch.

Some good products, but the warranty is also kind of weak. I look for products whose warranty backs up a majority of the lifespan of the product... and that's Flex Fire LEDs and Superbright, at least in terms of my particular product.

I'll say it again, 50,000 hours is nothing if there's no warranty to back it up!

For what it's worth, my shop has installed almost 43 MILES (I'm not exaggerating) of LED tape in the last six years, and we had only one bad batch of Environmental Lights tape in all that time. Environmental Lights stood behind their product, acknowledged the failure, and replaced it on their dime. They're a good company with a good product; better color matching than anyone else out there. I can add rolls of tape from bin to bin with no color shift issues.

Their tape is UL Listed as well, and that can be very helpful when it comes to fussy inspectors.

They also have seemingly endless stock on hand; we've ordered multiple hundreds of rolls of tape at a time, and they always have stock on hand to fill the order. I think we've only had a backorder from them once or twice.



SceneryDriver

 

[Jerramundi]

For what it's worth, my shop has installed almost 43 MILES (I'm not exaggerating) of LED tape in the last six years, and we had only one bad batch of Environmental Lights tape in all that time. Environmental Lights stood behind their product, acknowledged the failure, and replaced it on their dime. They're a good company with a good product; better color matching than anyone else out there. I can add rolls of tape from bin to bin with no color shift issues.

Their tape is UL Listed as well, and that can be very helpful when it comes to fussy inspectors.

They also have seemingly endless stock on hand; we've ordered multiple hundreds of rolls of tape at a time, and they always have stock on hand to fill the order. I think we've only had a backorder from them once or twice.



SceneryDriver

That's a great testimony. I'll try and keep that in mind.
With such a great product, one would think they would offer more than a 3 year warranty (for the models I'm looking at).

 

[hbiss]

Probably a stupid question, but could you use CAT5 or CAT6 if it's CL2 with the proper wire gauge per load calculations and with insulation rated for the highest possible voltage applied? I honestly don't know if CAT5 or CAT6 goes up to 12VDC or 24VDC. I would assume it maxes out at like 10VDC.

Any wire that is listed CL2 is 150V. But you aren't supposed to know that because all we are supposed to care about is that it is CL2 and the NEC did all the thinking for us.

-Hal