peter d
Senior Member
- Location
- New England
My fan box thread got me thinking a bit: Is it a violation of our constitutional rights for an inspector to require things that are not written in any code or law?
Unconstitutional?
- Thread starter peter d
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aelectricalman
Senior Member
- Location
- KY
Re: Unconstitutional?
Im not sure if I should answer this question seriously or not.
Im not sure if I should answer this question seriously or not.
highkvoltage
Senior Member
Re: Unconstitutional?
I find no Article in the Constitution concerning such matters, but working for some cheap GC would fall under the slavery amendment.
I find no Article in the Constitution concerning such matters, but working for some cheap GC would fall under the slavery amendment.
sandsnow
Senior Member
- Location
- Southern California
Re: Unconstitutional?
What would you do if a police officer wrote you up for a vehicle code violation that did not exist?
What would you do if a police officer wrote you up for a vehicle code violation that did not exist?
peter d
Senior Member
- Location
- New England
Re: Unconstitutional?
Really...this is a serious question. I'm kind of surprised by the reaction I'm getting.
I am not an expert in laws or the constitution, so that's why I asked the question. Apparently, what I asked is laughable. :roll:
Doesn't anyone else here consider being forced to do something that is not written in law a violation of one's constitutional rights? Aren't we a nation of rules and laws?
Yeah Sam, I believe in Santa. :roll:
[ April 18, 2005, 07:55 PM: Message edited by: peter d ]
Really...this is a serious question. I'm kind of surprised by the reaction I'm getting.
I am not an expert in laws or the constitution, so that's why I asked the question. Apparently, what I asked is laughable. :roll:
Doesn't anyone else here consider being forced to do something that is not written in law a violation of one's constitutional rights? Aren't we a nation of rules and laws?
Yeah Sam, I believe in Santa. :roll:
[ April 18, 2005, 07:55 PM: Message edited by: peter d ]
physis
Senior Member
Re: Unconstitutional?
Peter, I didn't mean to get you miffed at me. I agree with you completely.
Without going into any detail, I'm at least as discusted as anyone else about how meaningless the constitution has become for most of us.
Edit: I think what I mean is, the only thing that is going to matter is the law and the organism that enforces it. Mention the constitution in court and tell me what happens.
[ April 18, 2005, 06:57 PM: Message edited by: physis ]
Peter, I didn't mean to get you miffed at me. I agree with you completely.
Without going into any detail, I'm at least as discusted as anyone else about how meaningless the constitution has become for most of us.
Edit: I think what I mean is, the only thing that is going to matter is the law and the organism that enforces it. Mention the constitution in court and tell me what happens.
[ April 18, 2005, 06:57 PM: Message edited by: physis ]
peter d
Senior Member
- Location
- New England
Re: Unconstitutional?
No worries, it's ok if we butt heads once in a while.
That's the heart of the matter.
hurk27
Senior Member
- Location
- Portage, Indiana NEC: 2008
Re: Unconstitutional?
Peter Your not alone.
This has been a real stickler with me as I don't think anyone has the right to enforce there own beliefs upon us at their whim! Many of our Grandfathers, Fathers, Brothers and sisters have died fighting for these rights and I believe that we should fight too! Right here on our own turf if you may call it that. But if we don't start standing up for our right's we will soon loose them, little by little. And it's happening as we type.
Peter Your not alone.
For a code to be enforced it has to be adopted by law. To be adopted by law it has to have the public's consent or it does not meet the definition of: FOR THE PEOPLE, BY THE PEOPLE OF THE PEOPLE.
This has been a real stickler with me as I don't think anyone has the right to enforce there own beliefs upon us at their whim! Many of our Grandfathers, Fathers, Brothers and sisters have died fighting for these rights and I believe that we should fight too! Right here on our own turf if you may call it that. But if we don't start standing up for our right's we will soon loose them, little by little. And it's happening as we type.
- Location
- Lockport, IL
- Occupation
- Semi-Retired Electrical Engineer
Re: Unconstitutional?
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On the other hand, if an Inspector declines to give us permission to do install equipment or to operate a facility, unless we do something that the law does not require, then that Inspector may have some consequences to face. The possible consequences may be as simple as a formal complaint to the Inspector?s supervisor, or may take the form of a lawsuit.
It would not be a violation of our rights, as I explain below. But the Constitution does have this to say: (Article 1 of the Bill of Rights)
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- <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.</font>
On the other hand, if an Inspector declines to give us permission to do install equipment or to operate a facility, unless we do something that the law does not require, then that Inspector may have some consequences to face. The possible consequences may be as simple as a formal complaint to the Inspector?s supervisor, or may take the form of a lawsuit.
aelectricalman
Senior Member
- Location
- KY
Re: Unconstitutional?
"This is not "nam" smokey, we have rules."
- The Big Lebowski
I think yes it is unconstitutional if infact there are no local codes to support his decision. Also, if there is not a bylaw in your township that states the AHJ has the right to take interpretation by his/her own judgement, your rights are infringed upon. Better call Al Sharpton
"This is not "nam" smokey, we have rules."
- The Big Lebowski
I think yes it is unconstitutional if infact there are no local codes to support his decision. Also, if there is not a bylaw in your township that states the AHJ has the right to take interpretation by his/her own judgement, your rights are infringed upon. Better call Al Sharpton
davedottcom
Senior Member
Re: Unconstitutional?
um... Sam...you meant organization , right?!?!
Re: Unconstitutional?
Reckless driving is an example of an offense that does not have an explicit definition and is wide open to interpretation.
Likewise, some parts of National Electrical Code are rather vague. There is no definition of what a thoroughly good connection and so forth.
There are some local rules that are based more of fear or because someone with pull want a make work rule. Greater Cleveland was the last region in the U.S. to stop using knob and tube wiring. Many cities had a make work rule that said that houses had to be wired with knob and tube wiring long after Chicago and a few other places had banned the damned stuff as unsafe. My girlfriend's 2nd bathroom has knob and tube with PLASTIC (PVC) insulation on the wires!
Reckless driving is an example of an offense that does not have an explicit definition and is wide open to interpretation.
Likewise, some parts of National Electrical Code are rather vague. There is no definition of what a thoroughly good connection and so forth.
There are some local rules that are based more of fear or because someone with pull want a make work rule. Greater Cleveland was the last region in the U.S. to stop using knob and tube wiring. Many cities had a make work rule that said that houses had to be wired with knob and tube wiring long after Chicago and a few other places had banned the damned stuff as unsafe. My girlfriend's 2nd bathroom has knob and tube with PLASTIC (PVC) insulation on the wires!
physis
Senior Member
Re: Unconstitutional?
Wayne, I agree with your sediments.
Trouble is that the constitution has already had it's ability to be useful stripped away from it. Either nobody has or has been able to do anything about it so far.
The news media feeds us our opinions and our elected officials who make our decisions for us on our behalf.
It's already in the bag.
You can yell you're mad as hell out the window.
Wayne, I agree with your sediments.
Trouble is that the constitution has already had it's ability to be useful stripped away from it. Either nobody has or has been able to do anything about it so far.
The news media feeds us our opinions and our elected officials who make our decisions for us on our behalf.
It's already in the bag.
You can yell you're mad as hell out the window.
Re: Unconstitutional?
I believe if you'll check the ninth and tenth amendments, it talks about individual's, as well as state's rights. Most code violations are deficiencies that need to be addressed. Depending on where your at in America, I don't believe that the inspector can make you work on anything not on a work permit, as to whether something constitutes an immediate threat to life and health, and the client wants it fixxed, or not, is another can of worms.
I believe if you'll check the ninth and tenth amendments, it talks about individual's, as well as state's rights. Most code violations are deficiencies that need to be addressed. Depending on where your at in America, I don't believe that the inspector can make you work on anything not on a work permit, as to whether something constitutes an immediate threat to life and health, and the client wants it fixxed, or not, is another can of worms.
peter d
Senior Member
- Location
- New England
Re: Unconstitutional?
[ April 19, 2005, 08:35 AM: Message edited by: peter d ]
Uhhh...Sam, you meant "sentiments," right?!?!
[ April 19, 2005, 08:35 AM: Message edited by: peter d ]
sandsnow
Senior Member
- Location
- Southern California
Re: Unconstitutional?
Most instances that I know of are resolved in getting the supervisor involved. I have not heard of an inspector being taken to court regarding overstepping his/her authority. Bldg and planning dept's have been sued for refund of excessive fees and had to refund fees. We can only charge what it costs to operate.
Re: Unconstitutional?
You would have to give a specific example of what has been required that is not "code". It is the duty of the AHJ (Authority having Jurisdiction) to approve equipment and interpret the code, and to give "special permission" where it is appropriate. The AHJ has a great deal of latitude in interpreting the code and then there is the matter of defining vague terms such as "workmanlike manner", "nearest the point of entrance", and "sufficiently large". We often disagree over a matter of interpretation, such as is a given area a "wet location" or a "damp location", but usually these matters of interpretation would not be considered constitutional issues.
You would have to give a specific example of what has been required that is not "code". It is the duty of the AHJ (Authority having Jurisdiction) to approve equipment and interpret the code, and to give "special permission" where it is appropriate. The AHJ has a great deal of latitude in interpreting the code and then there is the matter of defining vague terms such as "workmanlike manner", "nearest the point of entrance", and "sufficiently large". We often disagree over a matter of interpretation, such as is a given area a "wet location" or a "damp location", but usually these matters of interpretation would not be considered constitutional issues.
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