Unconventional HVAC installation

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bphgravity

Senior Member
Location
Florida
Re: Unconventional HVAC installation

Thanks Pierre! I really appreciate the kind words. I really am trying to do the right thing. I remember the first couple of posts you made after first becomming an inspector. I could tell you were also strugling with your new perspective and position in the industry.

Every aspect of the electrical industry has room for improvement, especially the inspection aspect. I have been impressed with the genuine concern for making things better by my local IAEI chapter and within my department as well. But the reality is that once a compromise can't be reached, the result is usually in favor of the inspector - right or wrong.

I am one of the first in my area to actually reference code sections on my inspection cards. I make myself much more accessible for contact and communicate with contractors and electricians as compared to many others. Our director is very contractor friendly, however I have heard on more than one occasion, "you don't have to discuss yuor decision nor do you have to explain yourself. Tell the electrician what you want or don't want, and they will have to deal with it."
 

George Stolz

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
Occupation
Service Manager
Re: Unconventional HVAC installation

You would not believe how long I've sat here and pondered this thread, and I just now got up to speed. :eek:

Bryan, what about this:

NEC-2005 422.12 Central Heating Equipment. Central Heating Equipment other than fixed electric space heating equipment shall be supplied by an individual branch circuit.

Exception No. 1: Auxiliary equipment, such as a pump, valve, humidifier, or electrostatic air cleaner directly associated with the heating equipment, shall be permitted to be connected to the same branch circuit.

Exception No. 2: Permanently-connected air-conditioning equipment shall be permitted to be connected to the same circuit.
Show your boss the exception 2 to this code.

I think it's compliant.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
Re: Unconventional HVAC installation

Pretty cool George but I doubt it is central heating equipment, Bryan being in FL. :cool:
 

bphgravity

Senior Member
Location
Florida
Re: Unconventional HVAC installation

Thanks George. Unfortunately Florida has been slow adopting the 2005 and this exception is new. However, perhaps I could provide the record of comment on this and show the IAEI analysis of change for this new exception to permit the installation today though the new allowance does not take effect until the 2005 is adopted.

I have every word in 430, 440, and 424 trying to find something. I completely neglected 422. :eek:
 

bphgravity

Senior Member
Location
Florida
Re: Unconventional HVAC installation

What is central heating equipment. Is an air handler with a heat strip and blower motor a central system?
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
Re: Unconventional HVAC installation

Originally posted by bphgravity:
What is central heating equipment. Is an air handler with a heat strip and blower motor a central system?
Darn good question, one that I wish I had a smart answer for.

I would venture a yes, if it is permanent and heats more than one room.

Don't ask for a reference for that though, strictly a guess. :D
 

bphgravity

Senior Member
Location
Florida
Re: Unconventional HVAC installation

In Mike Holt's Understanding the NEC, he calls the section "Fossil Fuel Heating Equipment (Furnances)". He continues to describe this as gas, oil, or coal furnances. I generally hear the systems installed here as "central heat and air" verses some older homes that have space heating and room a/c.

I can't believe how complicated things can get. :mad:
 

augie47

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Tennessee
Occupation
State Electrical Inspector (Retired)
Re: Unconventional HVAC installation

From your posts, I assume you and this contractor have a good working relationship...also from your posts and from others comments you seem to be top notch inspector to work with. This appears to be a one-shot deal...do you think the ole "it;s code compliant and i'm not rejecting it, but its questionable to my bosses....you sure would make my life easier if you changed to..." might work?
I try to work with all my contractors also..most will willingly change borderline items maintaining that good relationship.
 

jimwalker

Senior Member
Location
TAMPA FLORIDA
Re: Unconventional HVAC installation

"have heard on more than one occasion, "you don't have to discuss yuor decision nor do you have to explain yourself. Tell the electrician what you want or don't want, and they will have to deal with it."

Your boss is inviting a law suit.Sounds like he is saying you are the law.But why not use his own words here.It's your call not his so either pass this or fail it.Seems most of what you dislike is that he used a larger wire than was required.And that is not a violation.So let's move to what else he violated,which is ????? .You said you cite code numbers and that's great.Saves time and phone calls.I think there is no shock or fire hazard here.Your job is to inforce nec.
 

macmikeman

Senior Member
Re: Unconventional HVAC installation

You know what really kinda toots me up about this whole discussion is the fact that it has become a so called "questionable installation". Big deal, the air handler is pulled off the branch circuit feeding the compressor. 440 in the code allows for this. The circuit breaker feeding the whole thing is rated to interupt at the smaller load rating. Where is the problem?
 

George Stolz

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
Occupation
Service Manager
Re: Unconventional HVAC installation

Originally posted by macmikeman:
You know what really kinda toots me up about this whole discussion is the fact that it has become a so called "questionable installation".
Well, we get used to keeping it simple, because keeping it simple makes our jobs easier.

If I were to see this, I would have reacted the same way Bryan did--I would generally feel uncomfortable about this peculiar installation, and seek second opinions about whether or not there is a violation present.

It's questionable because it's so unusual, it's not a down-the-nose remark on the EC. :D
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
Re: Unconventional HVAC installation

Well my two cents are as follows.

Bryan is trying to do the right thing, he is asking for outside help. It seems he wants to enforce the NEC as written. :p ) so pick up the red flags and continue onto the next inspection. :cool:
 

macmikeman

Senior Member
Re: Unconventional HVAC installation

Ok then George, I apoligise if I came across to "know it all" about this. Here is some info I hope can be helpful. Mitsubishi produces split system air condition units that have a second terminal block at the compressor, that is tied to the feed terminal block. It provides a place for terminating an extension of the branch circuit out to the fan coil. Take note, this is only provided with the Units that are to be on 15 amp circuits, as the fan coils must only be protected by a 15 amp breaker max. It is done here all the time. However I will add the fact that when the fan goes in a bedroom, I do not use this option, because of AFCI requirements for bedrooms, and the fact that the compressor is fed 240 volts, so not AFCI protected.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
Re: Unconventional HVAC installation

Mike you could ignore the AFCI requirement if you wanted to as it only applies to 125 volt circuits.

Sanyo also makes a split system as you describe and I do not believe we are limited to only 15 amp circuits on those units.
 

macmikeman

Senior Member
Re: Unconventional HVAC installation

Bob, you are right, but the Mitsubi's all have 120 volt fans. I do get to hook up Sanyo, Fujitsu, Carrier, and others on occasion, but the a/c company I get a lot of sub work calls from only installs Mitsubishi for residential jobs.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
Re: Unconventional HVAC installation

Originally posted by macmikeman:
Bob, you are right, but the Mitsubi's all have 120 volt fans.
10-4, I forgot we have to bring a neutral to the roof just for the fan feed.

I have never installed these units in a house, it always seems to be small computer / phone equipment rooms.
 

jimwalker

Senior Member
Location
TAMPA FLORIDA
Re: Unconventional HVAC installation

Let's look at it this way.Had he run 10-2 from AC unit to panel and also 10-2 from air handler to panel and land them both by way of pigtails to a 2 pole 30 would there been any problem with that install ? Other than this mans unusual install i just can't find a violation.He somehow passed on the rough and got caught on final.Perhaps he was trying to keep from doing any drywall damage.My suggestion would be print all the posts show them to your boss.Just what qualifications does your boss have ? is he just over all inspectors or is he a chief electrical inspector ? He should not have a voice in this if he is not at least a chief electrical inspector.JMO
 
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