Understanding the NEC Volume 1 Article 200

I am currently studying through Mike Holt's Ultimate training library. I am currently going through Article 200 in the Understanding the NEC books. In the book(Volume1 pg 70&71) and video, reference is made to marking the white conductor a different color if not used as the neutral conductor in switch boxes. It is also stated that the white wire can be used as travelers. I fully understand that this is how many electricians perform the task of bringing power into switch boxes and running 3 way switches. Our company is currently transitioning away from this practice and I understand the difficulty of some in this regards. I also understand that there are instances where the white wire is not the neutral and must be marked, but the direct reference in the video and literature is to switch boxes.

404.2(C) states that there must be a neutral conductor in switch boxes. The examples from the book and video would seem to be in direct violation of the code. I was just wondering if I am not considering something properly in regards to the examples and their violation to the above stated code??
 

ryan_618

Senior Member
The examples meet the second part of the exception to 404.2(C), since I review the graphics and certainly wouldn't make a mistake!:p
 

ryan_618

Senior Member
I do think the graphics "could" meet that exception, but we are going to revise the book and the grapchics for this section in 2014. It does need to be clearer that the exception is being utilized.
Ryan
 
I do think the graphics "could" meet that exception, but we are going to revise the book and the grapchics for this section in 2014. It does need to be clearer that the exception is being utilized.
Ryan
I agree......... there is no finish on those studs and joist, SOOO I guess that 'exception' would cover ya this time...... But I'll be looking :jawdrop:

HEE HEE HEE
 

jxofaltrds

Senior Member
I am currently studying through Mike Holt's Ultimate training library. I am currently going through Article 200 in the Understanding the NEC books. In the book(Volume1 pg 70&71) and video, reference is made to marking the white conductor a different color if not used as the neutral conductor in switch boxes. It is also stated that the white wire can be used as travelers. IQUOTE]

It can not be used as a traveler.

200.7(C)(1) If used for single-pole,
3-way or 4-way switch loops, the reidentified conductor
with white or gray insulation or three continuous
white stripes shall be used only for the supply to the
switch, but not as a return conductor from the switch to
the outlet.
 

hurk27

Senior Member
I am currently studying through Mike Holt's Ultimate training library. I am currently going through Article 200 in the Understanding the NEC books. In the book(Volume1 pg 70&71) and video, reference is made to marking the white conductor a different color if not used as the neutral conductor in switch boxes. It is also stated that the white wire can be used as travelers. IQUOTE]

It can not be used as a traveler.

200.7(C)(1) If used for single-pole,
3-way or 4-way switch loops, the reidentified conductor
with white or gray insulation or three continuous
white stripes shall be used only for the supply to the
switch, but not as a return conductor from the switch to
the outlet.
Mike the intent is to not have two white conductors land at the light outlet box, a white traveler will always be from one switch to the other, and since one or the other common on a 3-way has to have the hot, the white traveler will only be a supply between the two switch's but the run up to the light has to be another color.
 

jxofaltrds

Senior Member
It may take me a while to make my point so 'bear' with me!

Here is a picture of how one way to do it properly. In this example the white wire is "supplying" the dead end.

3waydeadend.jpg

"but not as a return conductor from the switch to
the outlet." In the above picture if you used the 'white' as a traveler it would be a "return" to an outlet.

In this example you would never think of using the white as a traveler would you?

3waypwr_swleg.jpg

I have argued this for years just like I do the hot/cold water bond.
After I win you over on this point I'll go back to hot/cold water bonding. LOL!:thumbsup:
 

ryan_618

Senior Member
Mike: I didn't look at your pictures. You agree that there is no possible way that a traveler supplies a luminaire, right? Perfect. Then I read where you wrote "I was incorrect". Perfect. Do you agree that I am right and you are wrong, that way I don't have to study your drawings? Or are we still in disagreement?
 

jxofaltrds

Senior Member
Mike: I didn't look at your pictures. You agree that there is no possible way that a traveler supplies a luminaire, right? Perfect. Then I read where you wrote "I was incorrect". Perfect. Do you agree that I am right and you are wrong, that way I don't have to study your drawings? Or are we still in disagreement?
I will take from your comments that travelers 'supply' nothing.

"white stripes shall be used only for the supply to the
switch,"

Travelers supply nothing. They break a circuit.

You should look at the pictures. You'll learn something today. ;)
 

ryan_618

Senior Member
Mike: you agree that for a light switch to work something has to supply it, right? I think you are trying to hard to create an absurdity in the Code. It is painfully obvious what the Code is saying here.
 

jxofaltrds

Senior Member
Let's start with a simple switch. In this example you can not re-id the grounded conductor.

single.JPG

We agree so far?

If we want to add any switches down stream the only wire that 200.7(C)(1) allows us to re-id is the grounded conductor on the line side (AKA known as the supply). And the only place the you can connect a feed is on the common screw. So there are only two places in any 3-way,4-way etc setup where you can connect a supply. See below.

l3way.JPG

Where is 200.7 does it give us permission to re-id the grounded conductor anywhere else other than a supply?

A 4-way has no supply. It just breaks a circuit.

4way.JPG


I read nothing in 200.7 that allows me to change the function of a wire in a circuit mid-stream.
 

ryan_618

Senior Member
Mike: A switch can't function if nothing is supplying it.
I'm really not interested in arguing this, so I'm going to end my end of the debate here. :)
 

Strathead

Senior Member
Not to dispute any of the other poss, but didn't 404.2(C) just get added in the 2011 edition? Most likely the MH books the OP has are 2008. At least part of the reason for the OP question.
 

jxofaltrds

Senior Member
I guess if you have performed a task for years incorrectly that makes it OK unless someone with a ballpean hammer can show you the error of your ways.:weeping:
 
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