Ungrounded circuit - what can you legitimately do with it?

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bjp_ne_elec

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This one is something I always struggle with. Go in to an older house and find the originally installed circuits contain Romex with no ground wire. Then I get in to some re-work and find grounded receptacles popped in on non-grounded circuits, with no GFCI and no labeling that there is "No Ground Conductor" installed This is illegal, per the NEC.

Now I'll run an example by the gang here, and see what the feedback is. There is a circuit with ungrounded Romex, and the owner wants three of the receptacles to be replaced, and would like them grounded. Can you legitimately disconnect those three runs, out of their corresponding junction boxes, and just run new grounded Romex to them. The thing I struggle with here, is the situation calls for getting in several junction boxes that are generally metal, and the Romex is ungrounded. By going in to the JB to nip the piece you're going to disconnect, is this in violation of the code. The rest of the circuit remains as it did before you started - except you've disconnected a non-grounded circuit that branched off from this JB - which is metal 9 times out of 10.

Thanks,


Brett
 
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Well that's certainly a solution, but I'm wondering if I can legitamately break existing receptacles that are wired with non-grounded Romex, off the non-grounded circuit - then re-feed the receptacles that have been disconnected - and definitely feed them with grounded Romex. My real question is whether it is legal. per NEC, to break these receptacles away. This would involve going in to a JB - and generally they are metal (and non-grounded/bonded) - and disconnecting a branch that feeds the receptacle that we would wish to isolate. Now I've been in to a box - so does the box now have to fall under the present NEC guidelines - and be bonded to equipment ground. A challange, as it didn't contain a ground to begin with.


So, back to your question, I'm prosing to only kill part of the old circuit.

Thanks

Brett
 
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Brett
To relieve your anxiety, why not just install new wiring to the 3 devices you are intending to change?

There is likely no violation in the existing boxes, as the wiring method installed was probably recognized back then. I think I see concern that when you make the change in the existing boxes that you are worried the other wiring needs to be changed as well. Without thinking of the local laws, I would say no.
 
Pierre - I intend to install new wiring to the 3 devices - the issue is how I can legitimately break them off the existing, non-grounded circuit.

Also not really following your last sentence - you say "Without thinking of the local laws, I would say no." - do you mean no, that the wire would not have to be changed, or no I couldn't break off each wire feeding the 3 devices I wish to change?

Dcspector - you're saying the existing metal boxes, that had one leg removed from the box - the leg that was feeding one of the devices that will be fed with new NMB wg - would have to be now grounded in this situation?

Thanks,

Brett
 
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Brett
If the box is large enough, you could disconnect the existing wiring (on both ends - tagging them), 'dead end' it and enter the new wiring into the box.

What I meant by my last sentence in my prior post is; 'no', it is not an NEC violation to do this.
 
Sorry Pierre - but I'm thick.

I have a box with four (4) pieces of non-grounded Romex exiting the metal JB. One of these four wires goes to the device I wish to seperate from this non-grounded circuit. I remove the one wire - at this JB which is metal, as well as removing it from the device box I wish to re-feed with new grounded NMB. I tag both ends as abandoned. I then buttom back up the contents of the metal JB, which now only has a total of three (3) wires exiting it, and replace it's cover.

Is this acceptable?

THanks

Brett
 
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bjp_ne_elec said:
Sorry Pierre - but I'm thick.

I have a box with four (4) pieces of non-grounded Romex exiting the metal JB. One of these four wires goes to the device I wish to seperate from this non-grounded circuit. I remove the one wire - at this JB which is metal, as well as removing it from the device box I wish to re-feed with new grounded NMB. I tag both ends as abandoned. I then buttom back up the contents of the metal JB, which now only has a total of three (3) wires exiting it, and replace it's cover.

Is this acceptable?

THanks

Brett
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Brett this sounds ok and if the new NMB wg does not enter that metal box then you do not need to mess with groundind that old box. I assume the new NMB wg is a home run to panel?
 
So, what you are saying is that you are completely rewireing and refeeding those 3 outlets, and only reusing the box? If so, as long as you don't excede box fill, it shouldn't be a problem. (Don't forget the KO closure in the J box:grin: )
 
Dcspector - you are correct, I would definitely run new grounded NM-B to the device outlets that have been disconnected from the non-grouned circuit. As the original intent was to get three specific receptacle locations supplied with a grounded circuit.

Can you site a specific code reference(s), as I really want to understand what makes this sceanario that I described, to meet the NEC?

Thanks,

Brett
 
If I want to abandon a segment of a run, I use dikes to cut the old conductors as short as I can, and push the ends out of the box if possible.

If I want to re-use a box while leaving the existing circuit intact, I simply wire-nut the old ends together and add the new NM to the box.

In either case, the EGC hits the box and the receptacle. If I need more space, I remove the old box and install a larger old-work box.
 
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