Ungrounded DirecTV Dish System?

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Ungrounded DirecTV Dish System?

Hi Don:

So, if the dish and grounding block are more than 6 meters (20 feet) from the home's main electrical service entrance and main ground rod, a secondary ground rod is required for the dish and grounding block, but the two ground rods are NOT required to be bonded to each other?

I found the following regarding:
820.40(A)(4) - an exception has been added to permit a ground rod for the primary protector with a bonding connection to the power system electrode.

Doesn't that say the same thing I was saying? A 2ndary ground rod is needed at the dish and grounding block. The 2ndary ground rod must be bonded to the primary ground rod.

Part A4 also goes on to say "the grounding conductor shall be as short as practicable not to exceed 6.0 m (20 feet) in length. Exception: where it is it not practicable to achieve an overall max grounding conductor length of 6.0 m (20'), a separate ground as specified in 250.52 shall be used, the grounding conductor shall be grounded to the separate ground in accordance with 250.70 and the separate ground bonded to the power grounding electrode system in accordance with 820.40(D)."

Aren't I reading this correct?? Doesn't it say a 2ndary ground rod is required at the dish and ground block, then the two ground rods are required to be bonded to each other??

Please clear me up on this one. I thought I understood the code verbiage finally, but some of you are telling me otherwise. ;-)

Thanks.
Matt
 
n3ntj said:
Hi Don:

So, if the dish and grounding block are more than 6 meters (20 feet) from the home's main electrical service entrance and main ground rod, a secondary ground rod is required for the dish and grounding block, but the two ground rods are NOT required to be bonded to each other?

I found the following regarding:
820.40(A)(4) - an exception has been added to permit a ground rod for the primary protector with a bonding connection to the power system electrode.

Doesn't that say the same thing I was saying? A 2ndary ground rod is needed at the dish and grounding block. The 2ndary ground rod must be bonded to the primary ground rod.

Part A4 also goes on to say "the grounding conductor shall be as short as practicable not to exceed 6.0 m (20 feet) in length. Exception: where it is it not practicable to achieve an overall max grounding conductor length of 6.0 m (20'), a separate ground as specified in 250.52 shall be used, the grounding conductor shall be grounded to the separate ground in accordance with 250.70 and the separate ground bonded to the power grounding electrode system in accordance with 820.40(D)."

Aren't I reading this correct?? Doesn't it say a 2ndary ground rod is required at the dish and ground block, then the two ground rods are required to be bonded to each other??

Please clear me up on this one. I thought I understood the code verbiage finally, but some of you are telling me otherwise. ;-)

Thanks.
Matt
Click to expand...
I understand it to mean....If the distance is 20' or less from the dish to the service ground, you can use a #14cu (minumum) and bond it to the service ground. If more than 20', you drive a new ground rod near the dish and run the #14 (min.) dish ground conductor to this rod. From there you bond the new ground rod to the service ground with a #6cu (minimum).
In reality, you're only adding another (supplementary) ground rod to the service ground per 250.53 (2005). You place this ground rod near the dish and bond the dish to it with the #14 (minimum).
Hope that's clear
steve
 
Ungrounded DirecTV Dish System?

That is exactly what I thought it said.. with the exception of the bonding wire size between ground rods. Documentation I found says the bonding wire can not be any smaller than 6 AWG.

Finally glad we have it clear! ;-)

Thanks.
 
n3ntj said:
That is exactly what I thought it said.. with the exception of the bonding wire size between ground rods. Documentation I found says the bonding wire can not be any smaller than 6 AWG.

Finally glad we have it clear! ;-)

Thanks.
Click to expand...
Actually, your understanding is as clear as mud... well, that may be a bit of an exaggeration :)

Restrict your reading of Chapter 8 to Article 810 Parts I and II and sections of other articles referenced therein. The more you stray from this, the more you will get confused.

A DBS satellite dish antenna, the receivers, and signal transmission cables are classified as Radio and Television Equipment, and only in regards to receiving stations. Should you happen upon a system such as DirecPC, that system can receive and transmit, thereby subject to Article 810 Parts III and IV.

FWIW, I have installed over a 1,000 DBS satellite systems.
 
n3ntj,
Atricle 820 does not apply to locally installed dishes...the Article that applies to this installation is 810. I do not find a requirement for a rod at the dish no matter what the seperation distance is.
Don
 
don_resqcapt19 said:
n3ntj,
Atricle 820 does not apply to locally installed dishes...the Article that applies to this installation is 810. I do not find a requirement for a rod at the dish no matter what the seperation distance is.
Don
Click to expand...

Don...What about the last sentence in 810.3 (2005)?
"Coaxial cables that connect antennas to equipment shall comply with Article 820". Does that apply?
steve
 
Steve,
Yes, 820 applies to the installation of the coax. That would not require the use of a grounding electrode at the dish. It does require a protector with a grounding electrode connection at the point where the coax enters the building. If an existing grounding electrode is not within 20' of the protector, then an additional electrode is required and this additional electrode must be bonded to the electrical system grounding electrode with a #6.
 
Ungrounded DirecTV Dish System?

OK, so now I am really confused.

Simply put, does the installation I described initially require a ground rod bonded to the dish and/or coax grounding block when the main electrical service entrance and main ground rod are over 20' away? From what the latest posting says, it looks like the coax requires this but not necessarily the DirecTV dish.

If it does not require this, what is required in plain English?
 
n3ntj said:
OK, so now I am really confused.

Simply put, does the installation I described initially require a ground rod bonded to the dish and/or coax grounding block when the main electrical service entrance and main ground rod are over 20' away? From what the latest posting says, it looks like the coax requires this but not necessarily the DirecTV dish.

If it does not require this, what is required in plain English?
Click to expand...
Now that you've discovered the ONE contradiction to what I've been projecting all along, consider this...
810.21 Grounding Conductors - Receiving Stations
Grounding conductors shall comply with 810.21(A) through 810.21(K)
Click to expand...
Go directly to 810.21(I)...
(I) Common Ground. A single grounding conductor shall be permitted for both protective and operating purposes.
Click to expand...
Now consider the following: 1) The installation falls under Article 810 and has a greater bearing on compliance than does Article 820, 2) Article 820 only requires a minimum #14 Cu grounding conductor for the coaxial cable(s), whereas Article 810 requires a minimum #10 Cu or its established equivalents for antenna mast grounding conductor (for all intents and purposes, the "dish ground"). Note there is no length restriction for the dish ground. When an insulated #10 Cu dish ground is run "through" the cable grounding block or grounding-type "switch", the coaxial cable grounding requirements of 820.100(A)(1) through (5) is met. Regarding (4) and (5), you can't get much shorter than zero distance, or straighter for that matter :D

As for complying with 820.100(A)(6), it is null and void because there is no coaxial cable grounding conductor run, as it is first and foremost the dish ground. A coaxial cable ground that is zero length is as protected as it can be :D

820.100(B) through (D) are not applicable. They are trumped by 810.21(I), but even more basically, there is no grounding conductor connection that needs to be in compliance with (B), there are no connections to grounding electrodes that need to be in compliance with (C), and there are simply no electrodes to be bonded to be in compliance with (D). :D

I should note that I did not take a mobile home installation into consideration while preparing the preceding statements...
 
Ungrounded DirecTV Dish System?

That didn't clear up any of my confusion on the matter.

So are you now saying that the dish does NOT need to be grounded, but only the coax grounding block does need to be grounded? Does this ground connection simply get bonded to a secondary ground rod (in this application since it is more than 6 meters from the main service ground)? This new ground rod does NOT have to be bonded to the main service ground rod?

Every posting seems to make it more confusing. I am just trying to find out what the proper 'code compliant' grounding requirement is for the installation I described.
 
n3ntj said:
That didn't clear up any of my confusion on the matter.

So are you now saying that the dish does NOT need to be grounded, but only the coax grounding block does need to be grounded? Does this ground connection simply get bonded to a secondary ground rod (in this application since it is more than 6 meters from the main service ground)? This new ground rod does NOT have to be bonded to the main service ground rod?

Every posting seems to make it more confusing. I am just trying to find out what the proper 'code compliant' grounding requirement is for the installation I described.
Click to expand...
Here's the way that I interpret the information so far:
Example...I install a satellite dish for a residence. The distance from the home to the dish apparently doesn't matter as far as grounding requirements. The coax cable will ENTER THE HOME at a distance greater than 20' from the service ground on the electrical system. I will then need to drive a supplemental ground rod near where the cable ENTERS THE HOME, bond the coax to this rod with #14cu, and then run a #6cu bonding conductor from the new rod to the existing service ground.
If the CABLE ENTERS THE HOME 20' or less from the service ground, I can run the #14cu coax ground directly to and bond to the existing service ground (no additional ground rod required).
Is this correct?
p.s. When my satellite dish was installed (on the side of my house) the cable guy ran the #14 down the outside wall, under my house, and bonded to the copper plumbing, total distance 30'+-. I just now (for the first time) looked at it. Apparrenty he didn't know either.
I've never installed a satellite dish, so I'm on a learning curve.
steve
 
Ungrounded DirecTV Dish System?

I dunno.. this is what I've been trying to find out for the past week, but am still confused.

If what you are saying it true, then the installation I am referring to needs a ground rod at the coax grounding block and this new ground rod needs to be bonded to the main service ground rod.

We are talking about similar installs.. yours they ran copper wire for the bonding. In the situation I am talking about, they only connected the coax grounding block and dish to a nearby cold water spigot which is only connected to PEX pipe (not metal plumbing).

Eh?
 
IMHO, The coax has to be bonded to the service ground regardless. All we're talking about here is exactly how to do it and follow the letter of the code..
steve
 
hillbilly said:
IMHO, The coax has to be bonded to the service ground regardless. All we're talking about here is exactly how to do it and follow the letter of the code..
steve
Click to expand...
Actually, both the dish and the shield of the coax have to be bonded to the service ground.

Minimum requirements (as simply, and in plain ol' English, as I can put it):
One insulated grounding conductor run of #10 copper from the dish to the nearest point of the service grounding electrode conductor or an already bonded-to-service grounding electrode, routed by way of the grounding block which shall be bonded to this grounding conductor.​

[EDIT-- ADD] Note the point of attachment to a service grounding electrode must meet the same requirements as the service grounding electrode conductor. An example would the case of a metal water lines. You cannot simply bond to the nearest point of the water line.
 
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Ungrounded DirecTV Dish System?

Update: My neighbor called Directv and had the tech come out yesterday to properly ground their system. I went over and told the tech what the code requires. I even printed out documentation that is on the Directv website saying the installer will "ground the system to local/NEC codes".

The tech would not ground the system. He said they (subtractor) are forbidder by Directv from driving ground rods. I asked the tech if he knew what the code requirement was. He replied that he can only install per Directv instructions and left, doing nothing. I called Directv and talked to tech support about the fact that their subcontractor would not ground my neighbor's system per local codes even though their' own documentation says that it will be done. They said they will send a tech out Thurs. I asked 'what makes you think they will do it correct this time'? They had no good reply.

Any suggestions? The installers and Directv have no idea what the codes are and will not even acknowledge they are installing systems in violation of the code.

Matt
 
n3ntj said:
Update: My neighbor called Directv and had the tech come out yesterday to properly ground their system. I went over and told the tech what the code requires. I even printed out documentation that is on the Directv website saying the installer will "ground the system to local/NEC codes".

The tech would not ground the system. He said they (subtractor) are forbidder by Directv from driving ground rods. I asked the tech if he knew what the code requirement was. He replied that he can only install per Directv instructions and left, doing nothing. I called Directv and talked to tech support about the fact that their subcontractor would not ground my neighbor's system per local codes even though their' own documentation says that it will be done. They said they will send a tech out Thurs. I asked 'what makes you think they will do it correct this time'? They had no good reply.

Any suggestions? The installers and Directv have no idea what the codes are and will not even acknowledge they are installing systems in violation of the code.

Matt
Click to expand...


This is similar to my experience with Dish Network. The installer, I'm assuming a sub contractor, told me that grounding was not necessary since I had high trees around the dish and that he doesn't do any type of grounding.
 
Personally, I question the NEC grounding requirements for antenna masts. It contradicts my understanding of how and where lightning strikes. Bond the mast to ground and you turn it into a "lightning rod". That's like yelling to a potential lightning bolt (as if you are the mast), "Here I am, hit me!".
 
Ideally, lightning rods (aka air terminals) actually reduce the likelihood of a strike by allowing emission of electrons into the atmosphere. The sharper the point on the rod, the more effective it is.
 
LarryFine said:
Ideally, lightning rods (aka air terminals) actually reduce the likelihood of a strike by allowing emission of electrons into the atmosphere. The sharper the point on the rod, the more effective it is.
Click to expand...
If that's accurate info, thank you for the enlightnment. Can you point me to authoritative documentation that not only supports that theory, but also documents some sort of proof?
 
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