Ungrounded Outlets
- Thread starter sparky46514
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Re: Ungrounded Outlets
Hello Tom, pleased to meet you. I thought no one would ever ask about the 3 wire and 2 wire cords.
Reason number 1. There is still many homes with 2 wire receptacles, customers will not buy a 29 dollar portable appliance, that requires 29 hundred dollars to connect.
Reason number 2. The three wire cord implies the appliance is grounded. The replacement of 2 wire receptacles with 3 wire, also implies the receptacle is grounded. A customer who gets injured of killed by an appliance that implies a ground and does not have one, will win any and all product liability law suits. The marking of 3 wire receptacles notifying the user it is not grounded is a liability disclaimer not a warning of being unsafe.
No small kitchen appliance is double insulated. Look at your toaster and toaster oven.
Hello Tom, pleased to meet you. I thought no one would ever ask about the 3 wire and 2 wire cords.
Reason number 1. There is still many homes with 2 wire receptacles, customers will not buy a 29 dollar portable appliance, that requires 29 hundred dollars to connect.
Reason number 2. The three wire cord implies the appliance is grounded. The replacement of 2 wire receptacles with 3 wire, also implies the receptacle is grounded. A customer who gets injured of killed by an appliance that implies a ground and does not have one, will win any and all product liability law suits. The marking of 3 wire receptacles notifying the user it is not grounded is a liability disclaimer not a warning of being unsafe.
No small kitchen appliance is double insulated. Look at your toaster and toaster oven.
jxofaltrds
Inspector Mike®
- Location
- Mike P. Columbus Ohio
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- ESI, PI, RBO
Re: Ungrounded Outlets
Bennie
Now you have me confused. "The marking of 3 wire receptacles notifying the user it is not grounded is a liability disclaimer not a warning of being unsafe."
I thought you said earlier that 2 prone outlets were safe?
Now it sounds like you are saying something else.
Mike P.
Bennie
Now you have me confused. "The marking of 3 wire receptacles notifying the user it is not grounded is a liability disclaimer not a warning of being unsafe."
I thought you said earlier that 2 prone outlets were safe?
Now it sounds like you are saying something else.
Mike P.
Re: Ungrounded Outlets
Sorry Mike, my writing skills suck. Let me try to rephrase. The marking of a 3 wire ungrounded receptacle is for liability disclaimer purposes, it is not a warning label for safety purposes. The absence of a ground wire is not a safety hazard.
Micro-wave ovens have a 3 wire cord for electrostatic bleed off. Any ground fault inside the PC board compartment will become a LL fault and burn clear before the breaker will activate.
[ July 29, 2003, 07:52 PM: Message edited by: bennie ]
Sorry Mike, my writing skills suck. Let me try to rephrase. The marking of a 3 wire ungrounded receptacle is for liability disclaimer purposes, it is not a warning label for safety purposes. The absence of a ground wire is not a safety hazard.
Micro-wave ovens have a 3 wire cord for electrostatic bleed off. Any ground fault inside the PC board compartment will become a LL fault and burn clear before the breaker will activate.
[ July 29, 2003, 07:52 PM: Message edited by: bennie ]
jxofaltrds
Inspector Mike®
- Location
- Mike P. Columbus Ohio
- Occupation
- ESI, PI, RBO
Re: Ungrounded Outlets
Bennie
I strongly disagree. Your writing skills are exellent. I just thought you were throwing one of your "curve balls"!
Mike P.
Bennie
I strongly disagree. Your writing skills are exellent. I just thought you were throwing one of your "curve balls"!
Mike P.
Re: Ungrounded Outlets
In a kitchen or bath area I personally would recommend replacing the outlets the GFCI outlets as dan55 for safety. In most other parts of the home the appears to be little benefit to using GFCI.
However, have you given this some thought. Because more and more people have computers, sound systems, as well as other electronic equipment which like to be grounded in that they are supplied with a 3-wire plug for equipment grounding. It may not be for safety but to have a ground reference so that the electronics will operate reliably. Grounding of electronic equipment has become a big issue large facilities they often apply isolated equipment grounds. Isolated ground wires may not be important in a private home but a common EGC may be important.
In a kitchen or bath area I personally would recommend replacing the outlets the GFCI outlets as dan55 for safety. In most other parts of the home the appears to be little benefit to using GFCI.
However, have you given this some thought. Because more and more people have computers, sound systems, as well as other electronic equipment which like to be grounded in that they are supplied with a 3-wire plug for equipment grounding. It may not be for safety but to have a ground reference so that the electronics will operate reliably. Grounding of electronic equipment has become a big issue large facilities they often apply isolated equipment grounds. Isolated ground wires may not be important in a private home but a common EGC may be important.
Re: Ungrounded Outlets
It is extremely important that computers and computer equipment have a good ground, especially older computers. Certain printers, for example, rely on the difference between the ground signal (O volts) and the high signal (5 volts) to differentiate a logic 0 from a logic 1. Without a common ground, the printer may not see the signal.
It is extremely important that computers and computer equipment have a good ground, especially older computers. Certain printers, for example, rely on the difference between the ground signal (O volts) and the high signal (5 volts) to differentiate a logic 0 from a logic 1. Without a common ground, the printer may not see the signal.
Re: Ungrounded Outlets
Don:
"If my proposal to change equipment grounding conductor to equipment bonding conductor was accepted, this problem would go away."
This is the same change Mike Holt was talking about on some of his tapes, .. coincidence ?
Did they vote on the change yet...?? Don
WmColt
Don:
"If my proposal to change equipment grounding conductor to equipment bonding conductor was accepted, this problem would go away."
This is the same change Mike Holt was talking about on some of his tapes, .. coincidence ?
Did they vote on the change yet...?? Don
WmColt
jtb
Senior Member
- Location
- Pennsylvania
Re: Ungrounded Outlets
How about calling the Grounded conductor the Neutral like the average Joe in the field?
1. Not technically correct, but will never be confused with grounding conductors.
2. Neutral can be redefined as the center of maximum standard potential of ungrounded conductors at service. This would work for single or 3 phase, etc.
3. Don't yell at me! lol
How about calling the Grounded conductor the Neutral like the average Joe in the field?
1. Not technically correct, but will never be confused with grounding conductors.
2. Neutral can be redefined as the center of maximum standard potential of ungrounded conductors at service. This would work for single or 3 phase, etc.
3. Don't yell at me! lol
Re: Ungrounded Outlets
jtb: Common sense is not allowed
I want to correct my previous statement about all conductors landing on the neutral bus, being neutral conductors.
Clarification...All conductors on the neutral bus, and ground bus, are ground conductors.
They are;
Neutral ground conductor.
Equipment ground conductor.
Earth ground conductor.
All of these constitute an electrical circuit. The earth ground, and neutral ground conductor, are normally load conductors. The equipment ground conductor is a circuit conductor, due to being capable of carrying load current in a fault situation, and provide means for filters to function.
A bonding conductor may be one of, none of, or all of the above.
Eliminate the "ing" and "ed", call it as it is, not what is speculated, that can be, may be, or has been.
[ July 31, 2003, 12:32 PM: Message edited by: bennie ]
jtb: Common sense is not allowed
I want to correct my previous statement about all conductors landing on the neutral bus, being neutral conductors.
Clarification...All conductors on the neutral bus, and ground bus, are ground conductors.
They are;
Neutral ground conductor.
Equipment ground conductor.
Earth ground conductor.
All of these constitute an electrical circuit. The earth ground, and neutral ground conductor, are normally load conductors. The equipment ground conductor is a circuit conductor, due to being capable of carrying load current in a fault situation, and provide means for filters to function.
A bonding conductor may be one of, none of, or all of the above.
Eliminate the "ing" and "ed", call it as it is, not what is speculated, that can be, may be, or has been.
[ July 31, 2003, 12:32 PM: Message edited by: bennie ]
jtb
Senior Member
- Location
- Pennsylvania
Re: Ungrounded Outlets
Why? Isn't white a 'neutral' color?
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