Ungrounded System, Compliant or Violation, Premises Wiring

[iwire]

It should not be referred to as an ungrounded system because it can be misused as such; it is supplied from a grounded system and is a grounded system in violation.

By your line of reasoning the moment I unplug an electric appliance it is no longer an electric appliance because it is not connected to an electrical supply.

I do understand what you are trying to say but it goes directly against what the NEC says. In your quest to clear things up in my opinion your only adding confusion.

It?s like vehicle = grounding systems, with truck = grounded system & car = ungrounded system.
Q: Does a truck lose its status and become a car when it does not have its bed?
A: No it?s still a truck but a truck missing its bed.

Are floor tiles still floor tiles when they are stored on a shelf?

Are wire-nuts still wire-nuts when they are in the bag?

Names are based on the intended use, not the unintended uses.

 

[tryinghard]

Okay I agree I'm overstating. So you are saying 250.4(B) and the likes can apply to any system that does not have a connection to earth?

 

[tryinghard]

?Names are based on the intended use, not the unintended uses.

Careful iwire; this sounds like it?s actually my point. Your scaring me :roll:

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Okay I agree I'm overstating. So you are saying 250.4(B) and the likes can apply to any system that does not have a connection to earth?

The application of that code section only applies to a system that is permitted by the code rules to be an ungrounded system. If a system that is required to be a grounded system, is installed without a connection to a grounding electrode system it is a violation. If you have a system that was installed in violation of the rules in 250.20, you correct the violation, and use the rules in 250.4(A).

 

[iwire]

Careful iwire; this sounds like it?s actually my point. Your scaring me :roll:

No it appears to be the polar opposite of your point.

 

[bobby ocampo]

The application of that code section only applies to a system that is permitted by the code rules to be an ungrounded system. If a system that is required to be a grounded system, is installed without a connection to a grounding electrode system it is a violation. If you have a system that was installed in violation of the rules in 250.20, you correct the violation, and use the rules in 250.4(A).

What provision in the NEC says that I cannot install a wye connected system ungrounded?

Is it a violation if I use the line-to-neutral in a wye connected system where the neutral is ungrounded?

 

[don_resqcapt19]

What provision in the NEC says that I cannot install a wye connected system ungrounded?

I never said there was, however, it may be a violation, but you would have to give me a lot more information before anyone could say it is or is not a code violation.

Is it a violation if I use the line-to-neutral in a wye connected system where the neutral is ungrounded?

Maybe, again a lot more information is required.

 

[tryinghard]

What provision in the NEC says that I cannot install a wye connected system ungrounded?

Is it a violation if I use the line-to-neutral in a wye connected system where the neutral is ungrounded?

Yes it's a violation, see 250.20(B), 250.24(C), 250.26, & 250.30(A)

 

[benaround]

Why is there a bed on my truck ?

Because the floor tiles are on the shelves.

 

[tryinghard]

Why is there a bed on my truck ?

Because the floor tiles are on the shelves.

Tiles in the truck; maybe it's an elcomino

 

[bobby ocampo]

I never said there was, however, it may be a violation, but you would have to give me a lot more information before anyone could say it is or is not a code violation.

What if I decide to use wye connected transformer ungrounded and complying with the other requirements of ungrounded system will I be violating the code?

Maybe, again a lot more information is required.

What is the specific violation if I have a wye connected transformer and the neutral is not grounded and I connected a line-to-neutral load and since neutral is ungrounded I use two pole circuit breaker to comply with the provision that all ungrounded conductor should be switched?

 

[bobby ocampo]

Yes it's a violation, see 250.20(B),

What if the provisions are under 250.21?

250.24(C),

What is in 250.24 (C) that prohibits 250.21?

250.26, & 250.30(A)

Will this article prohibits 250.21?

 

[tryinghard]

What if the provisions are under 250.21?


What is in 250.24 (C) that prohibits 250.21?




Will this article prohibits 250.21?

Have you read these code sections, 250.20(B), 250.24(C), 250.26, & 250.30(A)?

 

[don_resqcapt19]

What is the specific violation if I have a wye connected transformer and the neutral is not grounded and I connected a line-to-neutral load and since neutral is ungrounded I use two pole circuit breaker to comply with the provision that all ungrounded conductor should be switched?

You are still not providing the information that is required to answer this question. The most important information that is needed is the voltage of the system. Without that there is no answer.

 

[tryinghard]

What is the specific violation if I have a wye connected transformer and the neutral is not grounded and I connected a line-to-neutral load and since neutral is ungrounded I use two pole circuit breaker to comply with the provision that all ungrounded conductor should be switched?

250.20(B)(2) & (3) do not contradict 250.21 at all, these are quite specific!

 

[bobby ocampo]

You are still not providing the information that is required to answer this question. The most important information that is needed is the voltage of the system. Without that there is no answer.

480Y/277 volts with neutral not grounded. Is this violation of the code? Can you use line to neutral voltage if neutral is not grounded?

 

[tryinghard]

480Y/277 volts with neutral not grounded. Is this violation of the code?

Absolutely, it shall be grounded! You really have to read to understand this 250.20(B)(2).

It has a neutral that is a circuit conductor, maybe you don?t understand this but that?s how this Wye system gets the 277.

 

[bobby ocampo]

Absolutely, it shall be grounded! You really have to read to understand this 250.20(B)(2).

It has a neutral that is a circuit conductor, maybe you don?t understand this but that?s how this Wye system gets the 277.

Can you explain the reason why neutral is prohibited to be used if the neutral is not grounded? What is the danger if neutral is used and the system is not grounded?

If the neutral is not used and only line-to-line voltage is used is this a violation of the code?

 

[tryinghard]

Can you explain the reason why neutral is prohibited to be used if the neutral is not grounded? What is the danger if neutral is used and the system is not grounded?

I will give you a journeymen electrician?s answer; you see many things in this trade are accomplished without thorough knowledge of the physics; it is not required for good journeymen to have a thorough knowledge of physics. If you want physics I suggest you find an electrical physics forum not a code forum. I am being short with you because I have watched you beat this topic to death; I have also noticed you ignoring really good direct answers. If you are trying to sell something or change why electricians install a certain item you?re at the wrong site because this is an NEC forum we don?t even change the code we?re just the users.

With all this said the first part of my answer to your question is: because 250.20 qualifies this application as such. The NEC is a permissive document in that it is authored to allow not disallow. So if its related code section does not qualify a particular application it is in violation rather than prohibited.

The neutral is a circuit conductor, whether it is used or not does not change its application. You cannot control its use in future years by others. Other journeymen will be working with a grounded system because the neutral denotes this.

The neutral is really the ?grounded conductor? literally because it is grounded to earth see Article 200 and also 250.142.

Maybe you need some pictures to help your understanding:

Ungrounded systems can be dangerous they are only used industrially for critical items that need to remain in operation while including a short. My reason for posting this topic is to stress the importance of intentionally installing these, never accidentally.

If the neutral is not used and only line-to-line voltage is used is this a violation of the code?

This horse is completely dead! You beat it to death! This has been answered multiple times by many individuals here and at other posts!