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Ungrounded vs. Grounded

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bushmaster6

Member
My military housing area has 2 prong (ungrounded) elec outlets and refuses to change to 3 prong(grounded).... I am looking for some firepower to combat this issue through the Housing division and US Army Safety Center. Any help in this mater would be greatly appreciated. Thank You, Bushmaster6
 
roger

roger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Fl
Occupation
Retired Electrician
Re: Ungrounded vs. Grounded

There is nothing in the NEC requiring these receptacles to be replaced.

If they are replaced they have to have an equipment grounding conductor supplied to them or gaurded by GFCI and labled "Not Grounded"

This is covered in article 406.3(D)(3)


Sorry

Roger

[ January 06, 2004, 01:46 PM: Message edited by: roger ]
 
tom baker

tom baker

First Chief Moderator & NEC Expert
Staff member
Location
Bremerton, Washington
Occupation
Master Electrician
Re: Ungrounded vs. Grounded

A ground at a receptacle makes the receptacle more dangerous. The best way to go is to use GFCI and 2 wire circuits with no equipment ground.
 
dereckbc

dereckbc

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Plano, TX
Re: Ungrounded vs. Grounded

Roger summed up your options correctly.

If you replace or add more receptacles you have to make them 3-wire, or use GFCI with labels stating "NOT GROUNDED".
 
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bennie

Esteemed Member
Re: Ungrounded vs. Grounded

Tom: You are good. :cool: I have been yelling about this for 50 years.

A ground is one half of a lethal circuit. Remove the ground when it is not being used and you have a safer system.
 
dereckbc

dereckbc

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Plano, TX
Re: Ungrounded vs. Grounded

Tom & Bennie. I almost agree with your statements with one exception. If the appliance or device has a exposed equipment chassis/metallic case, and 3-wire plug, a grounded circuit is safer IMO. I base this on the obvious fact that if the ungrounded conductor were to fault to the chassis or case, the OCPD should operate. Otherwise the chassis would become energized and stay that way until something or someone comes in contact between the chassis/case and ground. True a GFCI should operate, but there would still be fault current for a brief time until the GFCI operated. JMO

[ January 06, 2004, 03:42 PM: Message edited by: dereckbc ]
 
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jerryb

Senior Member
Re: Ungrounded vs. Grounded

Okay, so now the wiring system is safer with no ground path. What would you like the people (that we are trying to protect) to do when they have a three prong plug?

They go out a buy a cheater with a ground pigtail hanging out one side. Then the pigtail gets stuck into one of the receptacle openings and now they have a 50 - 50 chance of creating short or getting shocked. Not all tools and appliances are double insulated. If they don't buy the cheater then they go to the hardware store and buy a three prong receptacle and do the installation themselves.

Now what is safer?
 
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bennie

Esteemed Member
Re: Ungrounded vs. Grounded

In the 50's we were all told by the experts that all cord and plug equipment would have a three wire cord. All receptacles became grounded three wire type.

The manufacturers put on the three wire cords, but could not sell the appliances. The three wire feature quickly disappeared, the grounding requirement did not.

Some salesmen told customers that the three wire cord would prevent being electrocuted if used with was a grounded receptacle. The customer bought a receptacle that had "self grounding" printed on the box. The appliance shorted to ground, and the customer was killed when making contact with the water faucet.

The product liability lawsuit settlement was enormous. The decision was based on the implication of the appliance being grounded by having a three wire cord.

The three wire cords became history. Grounding at convenience outlets is a waste of good copper.

Specific dedicated equipment such as clothes washers, should have a ground wire. Most other 120 volt appliances are becoming the double insulated type.
 
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bennie

Esteemed Member
Re: Ungrounded vs. Grounded

The reason for the requirement of posting a decal on the ungrounded receptacles is not for safety purposes it is a legal disclaimer to prevent liability law suits from false implication of safety.
 
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jimwalker

Senior Member
Location
TAMPA FLORIDA
Re: Ungrounded vs. Grounded

If we had gfci back then they would have never made grounded receptacles and still have 2 wire systems.They did the best they could in those days.There is no good reason today to use grounded receptacles but could be years before they change back.
Just what is it that you are pluging in that needs a ground ? computer,microwave,frig
 
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bennie

Esteemed Member
Re: Ungrounded vs. Grounded

Jim: Good perception. I have about 1200 feet of #14 and #12 wire in my house that will never be used for anything. Multiply this by the number of homes and you can pay off the national debt.

If I had the money wasted, Bill Gates would be second richest in the world.
 
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jimwalker

Senior Member
Location
TAMPA FLORIDA
Re: Ungrounded vs. Grounded

BENNIE I retire in 6 more years .I don't see this grd wire being removed till after that and maybe not till im dead.Do you think mfg want to sell less wire or green wirenuts ?They will use politics to keep it going.
 
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templdl

Senior Member
Location
Wisconsin
Re: Ungrounded vs. Grounded

If people protection is an issue I vote for the GFCI outlet marked is having "no equipment ground."
But keep in mind that there is a boat load of electronic equipment being used out there that do no take kindly to not having a ground reference.
Thus, an GFCI outlet that has no equipment ground doesn't solve that problem.
 
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big john

Senior Member
Location
Portland, ME
Re: Ungrounded vs. Grounded

I don't think it's unrealistic to say that if a circuit is properly grounded during its installation, that EG will remain effective at clearing a fault far after any GFCI device has failed.

I would not be entirely comfortable entrusting all aspects of fault clearing solely to GFCIs just because of the probability of failure. You can argue that equipment grounds also fail, but that is usually do to poor installation. You can install a GFCI absolutely by the book and there's no guarantee it will even work properly the very first time.

At the very least those two methods used in tandem serve to add a redundant measure to the circuit to make it just that much safer.

-John

[ January 07, 2004, 06:20 AM: Message edited by: big john ]
 
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bennie

Esteemed Member
Re: Ungrounded vs. Grounded

John: The equipment ground is a fraud. The conductor dies at the receptacle in most cases. This feature is a false sense of security for the consumer. The ground wire only consumes money, nothing else.

The best prevention of electric shock is to remove all grounded objects in a dwelling.
 
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Ed MacLaren

Senior Member
Re: Ungrounded vs. Grounded

The best prevention of electric shock is to remove all grounded objects in a dwelling.
Click to expand...
How do you do that, Bennie.
Could we make the structural members from re-cycled plastic instead of steel and concrete?

I suppose you could hang the building from a sattelite in geo-syncronous orbit. :D

Ed
 
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bennie

Esteemed Member
Re: Ungrounded vs. Grounded

How many dwellings are constructed of concrete and steel?

How many buildings have exposed steel columns and conductive walls and floors?
 
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