Ungrounded vs. Grounded

[iwire]

Re: Ungrounded vs. Grounded

Bennie so your position is the use of a grounding conductors have not prevented any injury's or fatalities?

 

[bennie]

Re: Ungrounded vs. Grounded

For every procedure presented in favor of grounding, to be the savior of mankind, I will present a better and more positive procedure to guarentee safety, and not fail with time and use.

I can show where persons have been killed by code approved grounding procedures, and saved by no grounding process.

 

[charlie]

Re: Ungrounded vs. Grounded

Bennie, a lot of buildings around here have exposed concrete and steel including the one I work in. I agree with you about the dwelling units but not commercial and industrial.

I remember someone indicating a danger if the frame of something were to become energized. OK, so what? I am assuming you are going to get between that and the carpet or hardwood floor, ouch?!? HMMM OK, to prevent that, the polarized plug and receptacle have been developed.

There are some needs for grounding in a home but not as much as is required by Code. I believe the areas around any wet areas and areas with bare concrete should have grounding and GFCI protection . . . period.

 

[tom baker]

Re: Ungrounded vs. Grounded

Originally posted by bennie:
Tom: You are good. I have been yelling about this for 50 years.

A ground is one half of a lethal circuit. Remove the ground when it is not being used and you have a safer system.

Bennie- I can't take credit, I picked this up from Mike Holt. He says the safest wiring method for a dwelling unit would be two wire with each circuit GFCI protected.

 

[bennie]

Re: Ungrounded vs. Grounded

Charlie: Of course I agree with grounding requirements being different in buildings with metal raceways. But the conductive objects are often covered, isolated, or both.

I will walk around my bathroom, with a bare live wire placed in a very uncomfortable location, and touch every thing in the room. I will never feel anything much less trip a GFCI. A grounded object will likely kill me or drive me to a proctologist.

[ January 07, 2004, 12:50 PM: Message edited by: bennie ]

 

[iwire]

Re: Ungrounded vs. Grounded

Bennie you have an unusual bathroom, and unusual bathroom habits.

Most bathrooms I have seen have metal plumbing fixtures.

In this state last I knew the plumbing codes still require copper domestic water lines, how do propose to make this safe?

A rule from the NEC to plumbers that the plumbing fixtures be of insulating material?

I certainly understand the thinking here, but I just do not think it could safely be implemented.

 

[bushmaster6]

Re: Ungrounded vs. Grounded

Well I have certainly been enlightened! Thanks for all of the support. I understand that none of my outlets are grounded and this is o.k.....
It makes for having to purchase adapters to plug in computer, fridge, ect..
Charlie said something about hardwood floors... I have hardwood throughout. Does this change anything?

 

[iwire]

Re: Ungrounded vs. Grounded

Here is a list of equipment and appliances the NEC requires to be grounded.

Refrigerators, freezers, air conditioners, clothes-washing, clothes-drying, dish-washing machines, kitchen waste disposers, information technology equipment, sump pumps, electrical aquarium equipment, hand-held motor-operated tools, stationary and fixed motor-operated tools, light industrial motor-operated tools, hedge clippers, lawn mowers, snow blowers, wet scrubbers, and portable handlamps.

So if you go ahead and use the adapter make sure the wire or tab on it is properly grounded.

 

[bennie]

Re: Ungrounded vs. Grounded

I am not saying all outlets should be ungrounded, only the ones that do not connect the ground wire to the appliance.

Unless the equipment ground wire is connected to the equipment it is useless.

Microwave ovens do not need a ground wire for operation or safety. The new line of double insulated dishwashers, trash compactors, garbage disposals, and all portable appliances do not require a ground wire.

The clothes washer is the only appliance that requires a ground wire, even if the porcelain finish is a good insulator. Some day these will be double insulated.

[ January 07, 2004, 03:55 PM: Message edited by: bennie ]

 

[bennie]

Re: Ungrounded vs. Grounded

Bob: I only do my demonstration when Bob Vila visits

I have all plastic water, and waste lines, CPVC and ABS. The metal faucets are not connected to any path back to the neutral bus.

I do not even have the canopy of the vanity light grounded.

I have much more than 30 K Ohms resistance from the bath room to the neutral bus. There is no chance of a shock, even the amount to trip a GFCI.

A ground wire or a GFCI is addmitting a faulty installation.

All of the statements are my own, and not approved or endorsed by the officials of this website.

[ January 07, 2004, 04:17 PM: Message edited by: bennie ]

 

[c-h]

Re: Ungrounded vs. Grounded

My two cents:

I'm on the other side of the pond, where the code writers have been thinking differently. The Swedish approach was for many years to use ungrounded outlets in dry rooms in homes. The ungrounded outlets accept grounded plugs, but not the other way around. I can't find any data to support that ungrounded outlets have caused deaths. (The country is small and consequently the number of electrocutions is too. The typical victim is an electrical worker.) Older grounded 3-ph plugs cause about one death per year as the first thing to fail on them is the ground. The difference is that these plugs are used outdoors and in damp areas, which indicates the usefulness of grounding in these areas.

 

[friebel]

Re: Ungrounded vs. Grounded

Grounding vs Ungrounded: I am going to give you an experience that I had with an ungrounded 2300 volt three-phase system.
I was called and was told from the power house, that I had a ground in "A" phase, because a ground detection light was out on "A" phase. Now it was my job to find where this ground is, and you will generally find it in a 2300 volt three-phase motor.
The procedure to find this ground was to go around the area and shut down a 2300 volt motor,and open the disconnects to see if we cleared the ground.I came to one location and asked the operations to shut down a motor in question. They informed me before we shut that motor down, we will need to start up a motor to keep the operations running. What we did not realize was that the motor that they were going to start up already had a ground in the motor on "B" phase.
Well, you know what happened, we had a big explosion in the 2300 volt starter because of a dead short across "A" and "B" phase. Needless to say, I became famous for locating grounds on 2300 volt systems.
I personally would rather see a grounded system.

 

[Ed MacLaren]

Re: Ungrounded vs. Grounded

friebel,
The modern high-resistance grounded system, with the pulsed fault-tracing feature would provide the continuity of service of the ungrounded system, with none of it's disadvantages.

The location of the ground-fault can be located without shutting down feeders or circuits.

Ed