Unlicensed Electrical Engineer - Limit to scope of work California

[Sierrasparky]

I was wondering this.
What is the limit of design work with out a PE to sign off a unlicensed EE employed and working for a Facility under the " communications " exception in California?

In other words I understand in California a unlicensed EE can design and sign plans pertaining to communication facility like a phone , ISP or cable company , wireless and such. However is there a limit to what they can do. Can they also design the electrical service , feeders and branch circuits and lighting for such a facility and submit final plans permit under this exception?

 

[ggunn]

I was wondering this.
What is the limit of design work with out a PE to sign off a unlicensed EE employed and working for a Facility under the " communications " exception in California?

In other words I understand in California a unlicensed EE can design and sign plans pertaining to communication facility like a phone , ISP or cable company , wireless and such. However is there a limit to what they can do. Can they also design the electrical service , feeders and branch circuits and lighting for such a facility and submit final plans permit under this exception?

I don't know about California but in Texas whether or not a PE's seal is needed on a design is largely up to the local AHJ.

 

[Sierrasparky]

I do know that in California if you are a licensed electrical contractor you can draw plans for commercial work as long as you are the hired installing contractor.

Just don't know how that works for a EE working a communication type facility.

 

[steve66]

Not sure about California specifically, but it might make a difference if this EE is employed by the phone company building the site, of if he is doing consulting work.

I don't know about California but in Texas whether or not a PE's seal is needed on a design is largely up to the local AHJ.

Here in Illinois, a local AHJ may or may not require a PE stamp for a specific project. But that doesn't mean its a free pass.

State law still requires engineering and consulting to be preformed by a licensed engineer. And liability still falls on the designer.

So if the AHJ doesn't require a PE stamp, it just means they are passing the buck, and basically ignoring the issue.

 

[Sierrasparky]

Don't know what a local AHJ may do. However all AHJ are supposed to treat the same throughout the state. But you know how that goes.

 

[tw1156]

I don't know about California but in Texas whether or not a PE's seal is needed on a design is largely up to the local AHJ.

Not quite true in its entirety. Here's a quick guide provided by the Texas Board of Professional Engineers on when a licensed engineer is required.

https://engineers.texas.gov/downloads/TBPEDiagrammatic2014.pdf

 

[rbalex]

This may give you a basic idea. For a more "in depth" view see this page.

There are multiple jurisdictions throughout CA that do have specific "maximums" such as ampacities and/or voltages or hazardous locations.

Truthfully electrical engineering is very vaguely defined. See this, Sections 6700.1 and 6731.5.

Also, it isn't nearly as well a protected profession as say contracting.

 

[Sierrasparky]

Thanks Robert as always.

I found this in those pages:

6746. Exemption - communications companies under the Public Utilities Commission
Plans, specifications, reports and documents relating to communication lines and equipment prepared by employees of communications companies which come under the jurisdiction of the Public Utilities Commission, and by employees of contractors while engaged in work on communication equipment for communications companies which come under the jurisdiction of the Public Utilities Commission, are not subject to the provisions of this chapter.


So given that exception is the unlicensed EE in a communications facility over stepping his authority if he is designing the Electrical infrastructure such as Service, transfomers, Fault current , Feeder size , branch circuit , lighting .........

Thanks again for your help

 

[rbalex]

Don't know what a local AHJ may do. However all AHJ are supposed to treat the same throughout the state. But you know how that goes.

Actually, unlike Title 24, enforcement of the Professional Engineers ACT is up to the local DA not a building official.

 

[rbalex]

Thanks Robert as always.

I found this in those pages:

6746. Exemption - communications companies under the Public Utilities Commission
Plans, specifications, reports and documents relating to communication lines and equipment prepared by employees of communications companies which come under the jurisdiction of the Public Utilities Commission, and by employees of contractors while engaged in work on communication equipment for communications companies which come under the jurisdiction of the Public Utilities Commission, are not subject to the provisions of this chapter.


So given that exception is the unlicensed EE in a communications facility over stepping his authority if he is designing the Electrical infrastructure such as Service, transfomers, Fault current , Feeder size , branch circuit , lighting .........

Thanks again for your help

The truth is, unless someone is injured and CalOSHA gets involved or someone gets royally POed, the Professional Engineers Act is rarely enforced. (As I said, engineering isn't really all that protected in CA)

 

[Sierrasparky]

The act however appears to be codified under the Business and professions code of CA just as we contractors are.
Lack of enforcement may be the case however it is the law.

Just like Vehicle codes and speeding. You don't see much enforcement out there on the freeway these days if you are doing under 75 and the limit is 65. I used to get tickets all the time if I drove close to 70 back in the Day. It is still the law no excuse if not enforced.
I get that.

Thanks

 

[rbalex]

Yes, virtually every profession from physicians to beauticians are licensed under the DCA. The lone exception, of course, is lawyers. You just can't trust any other profession to watch over themselves in CA as attorneys do.

 

[Sierrasparky]

Yes, virtually every profession from physicians to beauticians are licensed under the DCA. The lone exception, of course, is lawyers. You just can't trust any other profession to watch over themselves in CA as attorneys do.

I've always wondered how attorneys can police themselves. It's not like they are beyond reproach or something.

 

[rbalex]

I've always wondered how attorneys can police themselves. It's not like they are beyond reproach or something.

Many years ago, I did a study regarding the "Boards" of several CA professions, including physicians. I found out that, while the wording varies, by law, their various boards must have less than 50% members of the profession. Again the lone exception was the CA Bar, which again by law, must be 100% attorneys. Only lawyers can truly appreciate the complex work of the their profession.

 

[Sierrasparky]

Many years ago, I did a study regarding the "Boards" of several CA professions, including physicians. I found out that, while the wording varies, by law, their various boards must have less than 50% members of the profession. Again the lone exception was the CA Bar, which again by law, must be 100% attorneys. Only lawyers can truly appreciate the complex work of the their profession.

Interesting.

Are you speaking of a governing board. If so I don't get it.

 

[rbalex]

Interesting.

Are you speaking of a governing board. If so I don't get it.

This is a list of all the professions requiring licenses in CA under the Department of Consumer Affairs (DCA). (Note no Attorney or Lawyer)

By Board, I mean that body tasked to determine qualification and post-licensure professional performance; it also issues the DCA license. The analogous body for lawyers is the State Bar of California which operates under a Board of Trustees. Apparently, since my earlier "study", some are now "public members", however the majority are still elected by the licensees or are still lawyers. Do you get to elect anyone to the Contractors State License Board? I don't elect anyone to the Board for Professional Engineers, Land Surveyors and Geologists. ​

 

[rbalex]

This is a list of all the professions requiring licenses in CA under the Department of Consumer Affairs (DCA). (Note no Attorney or Lawyer)

By Board, I mean that body tasked to determine qualification and post-licensure professional performance; it also issues the DCA license. The analogous body for lawyers is the State Bar of California which operates under a Board of Trustees. Apparently, since my earlier "study", some are now "public members", however the majority are still elected by the licensees or are still lawyers. Do you get to elect anyone to the Contractors State License Board? I don't elect anyone to the Board for Professional Engineers, Land Surveyors and Geologists. ​

Of course, the theory is DCA is interested in protecting the public, not the profession. As far as the Bar is concerned, someone needs to protect the public from tort reform.

 

[Sierrasparky]

Ok Got it.

 

[Ingenieur]

Not quite true in its entirety. Here's a quick guide provided by the Texas Board of Professional Engineers on when a licensed engineer is required.

https://engineers.texas.gov/downloads/TBPEDiagrammatic2014.pdf

that is a good chart

 

[Andy Delle]

There are thousands of practicing engineers in many engineering fields that do not have PE licensing. The laws very state to state, but in general a PE license is only required when offering engineering services for hire to the public. A corporation is free to set what ever internal standards for their employees they choose. Now that does not exempt them from public codes and in some cases a PE may need to validate plans. But a PE is a license. Engineering is a profession.

Furthermore some areas of engineering have direct federal licensing. Broadcasting, RF communications, Avionics, and there are many more. These licenses can co-exist with a PE license but even here if a specific license is required, a PE license is not a general substitute. Relevant example for this forum. Just because someone hold and electrical PE in a state does not mean they are automatically a licensed EC. If they want an EC license, they have to get it through the proper channels just like everyone else..