Unlicensed Electrical Engineer - Limit to scope of work California

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Designer69

Senior Member
how come people are more than willing to overpay for justin bieber and taylor swift tickets but don't want to pay a penny for something as important as professional engineering design of their actual buildings? I don't get it.

It shouldn't even be a question or a thought to skimp out on engineering services. Always be more than happy to pay as if it was a justin bieber concert. Otherwise we're going to get collapsing bridges like it happened in florida.
 
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Andy Delle

Senior Member
Location
Los Angeles CA
Designer69 said:
how come people are more than willing to overpay for justin bieber and taylor swift tickets but don't want to pay a penny for something as important as professional engineering design of their actual buildings? I don't get it.

It shouldn't even be a question or a thought to skimp out on engineering services. Always be more than happy to pay as if it was a justin bieber concert. Otherwise we're going to get collapsing bridges like it happened in florida.
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I don't know of many places in the USA where you can erect a commercial building without the involvement of a PE. And certainly no civil project such as a bridge could be built without one.

That said, just because someone hold an engineering license does not guarantee competence. Nor does it prevent honest human mistakes. Hence your Florida bridge analogy. History is full of engineering disasters that were fully planned and executed by licensed professionals. Things happen.

Speaking of concert venues, who approves all that rigging of lighting and speakers hanging out over the audience? I don't know and probably don't want to know either.
 
rbalex

rbalex

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Mission Viejo, CA
Occupation
Professional Electrical Engineer
Andy Delle said:
There are thousands of practicing engineers in many engineering fields that do not have PE licensing. The laws very state to state, but in general a PE license is only required when offering engineering services for hire to the public. A corporation is free to set what ever internal standards for their employees they choose. Now that does not exempt them from public codes and in some cases a PE may need to validate plans. But a PE is a license. Engineering is a profession.

Furthermore some areas of engineering have direct federal licensing. Broadcasting, RF communications, Avionics, and there are many more. These licenses can co-exist with a PE license but even here if a specific license is required, a PE license is not a general substitute. Relevant example for this forum. Just because someone hold and electrical PE in a state does not mean they are automatically a licensed EC. If they want an EC license, they have to get it through the proper channels just like everyone else..
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Actually, most people don't understand what a license is. From the Merriam-Webster 11 Collegiate Dictionary, the definition that applies to our discussion:

2a : a permission granted by competent authority to engage in a business or occupation or in an activity otherwise unlawful
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It was originally applied to marriage licenses as a means to deny interracial marriage, not document the marriage.

EDIT ADD: You are correct, it does not guarantee competence. (Even in marriages)
 
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Andy Delle

Senior Member
Location
Los Angeles CA
I remember a case a few years ago where Illinois PE board took Microsoft to court over the MCSE certification, which is basically a night course on computer network administration. Now in this case I see the board's point but in the end, the state board lost. Simple reason, who in the 1990s besides the federal justice department had the means to go up against Microsoft.

I also remember a similar case in Texas?
 
Sierrasparky

Sierrasparky

Senior Member
Location
USA
Occupation
Electrician ,contractor
Andy Delle said:
There are thousands of practicing engineers in many engineering fields that do not have PE licensing. The laws very state to state,

We are only speaking of this State of CA

 but in general a PE license is only required when offering engineering services for hire to the public.
Not necissarily

A corporation is free to set what ever internal standards for their employees they choose. Now that does not exempt them from public codes and in some cases a PE may need to validate plans. But a PE is a license. Engineering is a profession.

Furthermore some areas of engineering have direct federal licensing. Broadcasting, RF communications, Avionics, and there are many more. These licenses can co-exist with a PE license but even here if a specific license is required, a PE license is not a general substitute. Relevant example for this forum. Just because someone hold and electrical PE in a state does not mean they are automatically a licensed EC. If they want an EC license, they have to get it through the proper channels just like everyone else..
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I guess I am going to have to agree to disagree with you on this one.

I agree with Mr. Alexander on this one ,

I ain't going to take the BAIT and debate this any further with you Mr. Delle. I don't want this item closed. Bob has been a great help on items in the past and he should know my thoughts and frustrations as far as EE' s goes. He clarified enough for me here.

Good luck all and have a nice weekend. :D
 
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Andy Delle

Senior Member
Location
Los Angeles CA
Sierrasparky said:
I guess I am going to have to agree to disagree with you on this one.

I agree with Mr. Alexander on this one ,

I ain't going to take the BAIT and debate this any further with you Mr. Delle. I don't want this item closed. Bob has been a great help on items in the past and he should know my thoughts and frustrations as far as EE' s goes. He clarified enough for me here.

Good luck all and have a nice weekend. :D
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Well good, I'm glad this has been clarified for you. But it changes nothing as to how i do my job. That goes for personal DIY work or professional work. Nobody cares what you think.
 
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Andy Delle

Senior Member
Location
Los Angeles CA
Andy Delle said:
Well just what do you propose to do about it? I am breaking no laws. If my AHJ, either at residence or at work approves what ever I do electrically, that's it.
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Sorry that does sound a bit harsh.

This guy, SierraSparky has been all over me because I did not install AFCI's or TR in a new personal DIY addition after the AHJ stated that was not necessary and furthermore signed off the job. I don't feel anyone here should be tagged a blatant code violator for simply following AHJ specifications.

Either knock it off or I will take this personally to Mike Holt. I did not start the feud here, SierraSparky did because apparently he has a beef with me as one of his superiors 30 years ago. And he will not reveal his true identity even when asked privately. That lacks of character right there.

This thread was started by him today specifically to challenge my professional work. I have the private mail from him directing me to this thread.

Enough of this. review my post history. I have not been combative with anyone prior to his attacks.
 
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Ingenieur

Senior Member
Location
Earth
all parties(inc myself at times): no need to get personal

I will say an ahj who condones safety code violations may be in the wrong line of work
the nec are minimum safety standards
 
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Andy Delle

Senior Member
Location
Los Angeles CA
Ingenieur said:
all parties(inc myself at times): no need to get personal

I will say an ahj who condones safety code violations may be in the wrong line of work
the nec are minimum safety standards
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But when a contractor of record, in this case an EE who pulled an owner/builder permit specifically asks about AFCI and TR requirements on an addition, with electrical plans submitted, and the AHJ says they are not required for circuit extensions, what is the problem? And the fact that two inspectors approved all the electrical work with no corrections further qualifies that policy.

If the the largest county in the state does not choose to follow the state code as assumed by some, that does not mean the contractor is a hack or a code violator. AFCI and TR are new requirements. This is not a hard core safety issue. The effectiveness of AFCI is controversial at best.

Did I touch a nerve with this group in that AFCI has a significant part and labor up-charge and the professional contractors don't want to hear about AHJ's blowing off the current code? Sure seems that way from the reaction.
 
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Ingenieur

Senior Member
Location
Earth
Andy Delle said:
But when a contractor of record, in this case an EE who pulled an owner/builder permit specifically asks about AFCI and TR requirements on an addition, with electrical plans submitted, and the AHJ says they are not required for circuit extensions, what is the problem? And the fact that two inspectors approved all the electrical work with no corrections further qualifies that policy.

If the the largest county in the state does not choose to follow the state code as assumed by some, that does not mean the contractor is a hack or a code violator. AFCI and TR are new requirements. This is not a hard core safety issue. The effectiveness of AFCI is controversial at best.

Did I touch a nerve with this group in that AFCI has a significant part and labor up-charge and the professional contractors don't want to hear about AHJ's blowing off the current code? Sure seems that way from the reaction.
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relax
I did not imply you were anything
only that IF code requires them the ahj should have enforced it
I don't give a hoot what you do in your own home, I have no $$ or dawg in this fight
 
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Andy Delle

Senior Member
Location
Los Angeles CA
Ingenieur said:
relax
I did not imply you were anything
only that IF code requires them the ahj should have enforced it
I don't give a hoot what you do in your own home, I have no $$ or dawg in this fight
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No you didn't imply anything but someone elee sure did.

I have no idea of how the state government operates? It's quite possible that a county can alter the code cycle the state adopts? That is quite plausible and if the case, then local code is in fact being followed. In any event it is not my or any professional EC's problem. The specific issues was raised by the EC and addressed by the AHJ. I don't know how to make this any clearer?
 
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Ingenieur

Senior Member
Location
Earth
Andy Delle said:
No you didn't imply anything but someone elee sure did.

I have no idea of how the state government operates? It's quite possible that a county can alter the code cycle the state adopts? That is quite plausible and if the case, then local code is in fact being followed. In any event it is not my or any professional EC's problem. The specific issues was raised by the EC and addressed by the AHJ. I don't know how to make this any clearer?
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why so agitated and defensive?
if you are good with it, end of story
 
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Andy Delle

Senior Member
Location
Los Angeles CA
Ingenieur said:
why so agitated and defensive?
if you are good with it, end of story
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Because I don't like being publicly accused of being a hack (or was it a trunk slammer) for this situation. Yes I knew about 2014 and AFCI and TR, mainly from this forum. So I asked where they were at with this new code. That's hardly in the spirit of trying to pull something over on the inspector which was claimed.
 
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Ingenieur

Senior Member
Location
Earth
Andy Delle said:
Because I don't like being publicly accused of being a hack (or was it a trunk slammer) for this situation. Yes I knew about 2014 and AFCI and TR, mainly from this forum. So I asked where they were at with this new code. That's hardly in the spirit of trying to pull something over on the inspector which was claimed.
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who cares?
2 opinions matter
my wifes
my peers whom I respect, but only up to the point of my paycheck clearing lol
we all will be 'wrong' at times, often more than we like, but the response is all that matters
I like to think I'm my own worst critic, probably kidding myself though

and for the love of all that is good and holy I am not saying you are wrong :)
 
augie47

augie47

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Tennessee
Occupation
State Electrical Inspector (Retired)
I like this part of the thread:

end of story

it has progressed more to a "personal" discussion and of little if any value to the other members so it is closed.
 
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