Update on Solar Tax Credit

If nuclear is so great, it should be able to stand without subsidies.
If the Interstate highway system is so great, it should be able to stand without subsidies.
If life in the US is so great, it should be able to stand without publicly funded infrastructure. Build your own highway.
 
This is going to descend into the political back and forth that gets shut down pretty quickly if we are not careful.

Some poorly developed only half baked ideas that I've been mulling:

Living in a society is a form of subsidy. People working together have economies of scale and specialization that are so huge as to be really hard to quantify. I know that I absolutely could not exist on my own. So in a very real sense I am subsidized by society, and hopefully I provide society with enough input to actually be worth it.

Society has grown to depend upon long distance transportation, specialized energy production and long distance energy distribution, and all this infrastructure is hugely interdependent. For example, if the electrical power grid goes down we probably lose a bunch of our ability to distribute gasoline.

We shouldn't think in terms of 'the government should do X'. Rather we should think in terms of 'we should do X via the government'. The government is _us_, our permission, our effort. Don't think in terms of 'why should everyone be forced to subsidize my solar power', instead come up with a convincing reason why 'everyone should support me installing solar because it will benefit them'.

Ideas: 'if you help me put solar on my home, I will no longer be competing with you to buy electricity and your electricity will be cheaper, so your subsidy to me is actually an investment that pays you'. But when you think about the subsidies in this fashion, you will have to question hard if those subsidies are properly structured to benefit society as a whole, or just the subsidized individual.

A 'level playing field' and 'free markets' are really nice ideas, things that I think we should strive for. But markets will always try to ignore what they can get away with not paying for. Markets fail all the time at dealing with things like 'how much pollution can I dump into the air' or 'how much water can I pull out of the ground'. Markets are incentivized to borrow from the future in terms of making messes now that someone else will have to clean up later.

Sorry. I should be debugging a program someone else wrote in LabView. So I've been reduced to babbling :)
 
AB 942 in California proposes renegotiate millions of solar contracts.
The were signed as 20 year contracts for the utility to buy excess power. Now they'll cut off at year 10.
Fortunately that provision got axed in assembly committee but the bill will still cut off the NEM legacy period when the customer changes due to sale of property.
 
Living in a society is a form of subsidy. People working together have economies of scale and specialization that are so huge as to be really hard to quantify. I know that I absolutely could not exist on my own. So in a very real sense I am subsidized by society, and hopefully I provide society with enough input to actually be worth it.
But <gasp> that's SOCIALISM!

In the first place, no, it isn't; look it up. In the second place, "society" and "socialism" come from the same root word; you cannot have a society without some vestiges of what some will attempt to denigrate as socialism.
 
But <gasp> that's SOCIALISM!

In the first place, no, it isn't; look it up. In the second place, "society" and "socialism" come from the same root word; you cannot have a society without some vestiges of what some will attempt to denigrate as socialism.

Agreed. The idea that 'Socalism' is a binary bad is a tool to stop people from thinking. If we try to absolutely eliminate socialism we have to eliminate society, and 99.9% of us will simply die because we can't survive without the rest of society. (All of us if you try to eliminate depending on your parents....)

At the same time, if you let socialism explode you end up with the limiting case of the individual being enslaved to the society as a whole (ideal case), or enslaved to individuals who've are somehow 'above' the rest of society. I'd fight against either version.

Embrace socialism, around the neck. Squeeze when it gets too big :)
 
Agreed. The idea that 'Socalism' is a binary bad is a tool to stop people from thinking. If we try to absolutely eliminate socialism we have to eliminate society, and 99.9% of us will simply die because we can't survive without the rest of society. (All of us if you try to eliminate depending on your parents....)

At the same time, if you let socialism explode you end up with the limiting case of the individual being enslaved to the society as a whole (ideal case), or enslaved to individuals who've are somehow 'above' the rest of society. I'd fight against either version.

Embrace socialism, around the neck. Squeeze when it gets too big :)
It's my worldview of binocular vision. The image you see with your left eye is different from what you see with your right eye. Neither image is the "correct" one, and it is only through the brain's integration of the two that we can achieve depth perception. Political left and right are the same issue; if either side succeeds in obliterating the other we are all in deep doo-doo. Ironically, if either side succeeds in exterminating the other, we get the same thing: authoritarianism. It reminds me of floating point binary math. :D
 
When I got a quote for solar, the American labor and American material markup amount was greater than the cost of the imported material.
Jim, you make an excellent point.

Is the USA clean energy tax credit subsidizing the Chinese PV modules and inverters manufacturers? Or is the Chinese government the one subsidizing the US market with inexpensive, highly efficient PV modules and inverters?

The crucial question that emerges is how the financial gains from a solar PV project are actually distributed. We need to understand precisely how much of the agreed-upon price stays with domestic entities within our own country, and how much flows out to international entities. And even among those international players, it's vital to distinguish which ones are our allies (those who generally share and uphold Western values) versus those who are our adversaries, holding worldviews that fundamentally clash with our own.

A quick project cost accounting thought experiment for a Resi PV in the US market.
Let's assume a 10.0 kWdc rooftop system is sold at $3.00/w cash, straight-grid tied, no ESS. That's $30,000. The cost of the PV module was $0.40/w and the micro-inverter system cost was $0.45/w. Let's assume the module manufacturer is 100% Chinese-owned company and that 90% of their revenue reaches China (10% goes to their US distribution efforts). As for the inverter manufacturer, it's US-owned company, but their manufacturing takes place in China, so let's assume 50% of their revenue goes to China.

The adjusted numbers work out as follows: $0.36/w (PV modules) + $0.225 (inverters) = $0.585/w is China's share of the pie, or $5,850 in total dollars. In other words, 19.5% of the project funds for a residential PV project, in this scenario, would reach China. The remaining 80.5% of the money goes to domestic entities.

My guess is that China's share of the pie has, and is continuing to, shrink year-by-year, especially with the assistance of the recently extended clean energy tax credits, and now with the BABA program, and with the overall impact from the supply-chain concerns and the growing US tariff policies spurring domestic investment in manufacturing by international firms.

With that said, let's keep those IRA policies and clean energy tax credits untouched and intact until their complete sunset in 2034. By then, the hope is that China, or the international piece of the pie, may have shrunk to levels so low, they're essentially insignificant. Otherwise, we risk returning the industry to relying more on foreign-produced products to build our PV projects.
 
... among those international players, it's vital to distinguish which ones are our allies (those who generally share and uphold Western values) versus those who are our adversaries, holding worldviews that fundamentally clash with our own.
The line between them is very blurry; some countries are on both sides of it.

That said, I personally do not believe that the US reneging on the ITC for renewable energy projects has all that much to do with a trade imbalance with China or any other country.
 
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Everyone paying taxes is paying the subsidies.

That is not anti solar.

When I worked for a large TO, I worked extensively in energy markets, independent power production, and distributed gen. The problem that is not identified in this discussion is how muddy the waters are here. In reality the way the subsidies are administered are the problem because too many people have their hands in the pot and make the solar developers look like the bad guy for actually getting the incentive check at the bottom of the funnel.

The reason that the narrative is anti-solar isn't because it isn't true but because the entire reason it is true is because of people pulling strings in the background manipulating the economics. Secondarily, distributed generation isn't part of the energy markets on a project-by-project basis until you are big enough to be considered an IPP, which makes you no longer distributed gen (generally speaking). PV doesn't have the opportunity to establish generation at a market rate the same as other power plants, so you are comparing apples to monkeys.

For the first point, the thing is during rate cases, in many cases, it has been uncovered that the utilities that are charging "lost revenue adjustments" and have PV/Energy Efficiency subsidies built into their rates, are also profiting from arbitrage on PV, so they are triple dipping. They collect admin fees for administering these programs as part of that charge on your rates, they are allowed to increase rates to make the same profit they would have had the customer no longer using grid power was still consuming the same amount, and, now here is the kicker, they are general able to sell the net metered power for more than net metering costs them (which is not factored into the lost revenue recovery, its just money in a separate hand that nobody considers). So, our utility companies are merely increasing their profit margin by eliminating net-metering, they aren't reducing their rates either as they still place this as reduced revenue so its free money x 2.

The second one is pretty clear, especially when you see the shift from behind the meter generation to directly fed in generation. A generator gets paid to generate, the PV does not, the incentives in many cases are simply providing that PV with a fair market rate for generation. This is of course complicated because PV is neither dispatchable, nor reliable baseload. This is why if people actually cared to solve the problem they'd start here by doing a better market analysis at the ISO level and having that set fair rates for PV (while considering energy diversity and storage), while cutting out the middleman with their hand out (the EDC). In New England, for example, take a look at how much Millstone is subsidized, in fact they qualify as renewable generation and have soaked up many of the large bids for power (20MW+) and get paid that subsidy. Their excuse is that NG power is too cheap for them to compete on a must-run basis. Energy markets are super complicated, and nobody wants to simplify them because everybody is making money hand over fist. There is a reason that Enron got away with it for so long. Everyone is still doing the same thing, except Enron forgot the cardinal rule of "Pigs get fat, hogs get slaughtered."

On top of all of that, costs are increased by too many cooks in the kitchen, and poor regulatory/legislative oversite. They allow the utilities to be the Wolf in Sheepskin. In CT for example, in most cases there is no additional subsidy besides the privilege to net-meter, and the ITC. Both that "privilege" and the ITC are going away. They are going to a "buy-all" structure and are requiring absolutely absurd infrastructure to implement these projects. They distinguish it from a feed in tariff simply because they want to tie it to a customer so they can force you to upgrade that customers infrastructure to modern utility standards - we are talking moving meter banks for apartment buildings outside on a 100kW project which simply isn't feasible. At the same time this project is generally required to run a new secondary out to the utility transformer so is not touching the existing infrastructure at all. On top of that every person you talk to from within that same utility or other utility territories is doing it slightly different. This makes the entire thing extremely complicated and volatile for developers which adds cost and this is above and beyond the ridiculous cost of the infrastructure to begin with. One minor example is the utility required us to do a 480V cold sequenced gang meter bank, sized with the PV as a system load, and required our main breaker match that load, which essentially doubles the size of the utility infrastructure (xfmr, pad, secondaries) and triples the size of the gear. This could have been 2 self-contained meter sockets with fused discos ahead of it for 10k, but instead was a 100k piece of switchgear installed for metering. That soaks up literally 25% of the buy-all "incentive." I put incentive in quotes because this is not offsetting a customer load, this is directly fed into the grid, so that's the actual return on the project. So, if a normal business has a 20% margin, the utility themselves just took away that entire profit margin and then some for a frivolous request.

So of course this is crystal ball prediction that is strictly MHO, but my guess is the elimination of subsidies is just going to eliminate small projects and, in a few years, when nobody is doing them, the utility is going to get legislative buy-in to go all in on putting in distributed generation "for the sake of the environment" and customers are going to be footing the entire bill as CapEx that gets built into rates.

TL;DR: PV is overly "incentivized" because the incentives aren't properly regulated to be going into the right person's pocket. Programs like MA SMART program attempted to eliminate how much money brokers were skimming off the top, but also didn't consider way too many other factors when they made it so complicated. Nobody is looking at the EDC's impact on these costs both from nonsense requirements and overly complicated administrative processes. Nobody is thinking about the future of who gets to build it when the incentives go away, and if it actually saves us anything.

On an entirely separate note though, all taxes are subsidies if you want to look at it like that. I sit at home working most of the time and still pay the same amount as everyone else for roads, I have kids in schools and others that don't still pay taxes for the school systems. I pay for the tax breaks that major corporations get anyway for writing off corporate jets, lavish executive suites, and the list goes on for all of the tax breaks. The concept that the average middle-class person gets to get a tax break on something, yet that is a subsidy, is a slight of hand by the wealthy to get you to look the other way for how subsidized their lifestyle is by the taxes paid by middle-class America.
 
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On an entirely separate note though, all taxes are subsidies if you want to look at it like that. I sit at home working most of the time and still pay the same amount as everyone else for roads, I have kids in schools and others that don't still pay taxes for the school systems. I pay for the tax breaks that major corporations get anyway for writing off corporate jets, lavish executive suites, and the list goes on for all of the tax breaks. The concept that the average middle-class person gets to get a tax break on something, yet that is a subsidy, is a slight of hand by the wealthy to get you to look the other way for how subsidized their lifestyle is by the taxes paid by middle-class America.
True, but this doesn't have much to do with why the ITC is apparently going away, either. Somebody just wants to torpedo the renewable energy industry.
 
Per AI, The solar industry now employs significantly more people than the fossil fuel industry in the United States. Specifically, there are roughly 5.4 times more jobs in solar than in coal, and 1.78 times more jobs in solar than in coal, gas, and oil generation combined.

In addition, China is accelerating deployment of solar, while we go backwards. This is insane.
This is not the selling point you think it is. It illustrates the inefficiency of solar versus fossil fuels, if it takes more absolute labor in the solar sphere to supply about 6% of US electrical power.
 
This is not the selling point you think it is. It illustrates the inefficiency of solar versus fossil fuels, if it takes more absolute labor in the solar sphere to supply about 6% of US electrical power.
But of course it is not remotely that simple.
 
True, but this doesn't have much to do with why the ITC is apparently going away, either. Somebody just wants to torpedo the renewable energy industry.

Yeah, I agree completely. I think that's the summary of my rebuttal. Calling a tax credit a subsidy as a blanket statement is silly. Its more of a control mechanism of the industry than a subsidy specifically. I think that's where my crystal ball prediction comes in - this won't shut down large offshore renewables, or utility scale projects, it just shifts the costs into electric rates and makes it harder for the average person to offset their electric bill. It is pushing the EDC's monopoly further. Anyone who things they are saving money because they don't have PV and their neighbor is subsidizing off of their back, is blind to the bigger picture of the threat that PV has been to the energy markets controlled by the wealthiest people in the world. PV has been a pushback on a lot of those costs which can now start to increase, including NG in the US which has been in abundance only because liquification and export has been so heavily regulated - both sides of the table have big money interest in wanting that gone, but nobody has wanted to be the scape goat for heating and electric bills tripling and PV (or energy independence as a general concept) plays a bigger part in that than people realize if you start to look close.

But of course it is not remotely that simple.

This is also a key point. Not only is it not that simple from a basic view on how it is constructed, and the lack of infrastructure cost relative to a powerplant, which hires people temporarily for a few years and then lays them off, but then on that latter point doesn't consider that our economy is based on spending - the magical cycle has to continue, or its worse in the long run - order from disorder if you will. If we build a single asset that, does it all instead of maintaining a steady but progressive industry, money flows from the top back down to the bottom - it is why Y2K was so profitable for the middle-class, it forced jobs to be created. Without those jobs our economy tanks and we have no money.
 
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Is the USA clean energy tax credit subsidizing the Chinese PV modules and inverters manufacturers?
A thing that keeps coming up is these PV modules that are made in China?
I have asked several times in several threads for examples of these.
Whenever I ask which ones say 'made in china'? all I get is crickets.
(Actually some of you said yours are Made in Mexico)
I am just wondering what brand of rooftop PV module is 'Made in China' and preferably from one of you who on here is a currently employed as PV professional (no disrespect to you retired guys :))
And no I dont mean those cheap RV / camping PV modules on Amazon, it has to be actual PV modules used in permitted grid tied residential solar in the US.
And yeah I know tons of stuff we install is made in china, LED lights, dimmers etc..
I just have never seen a PV module marked made in china.
 
A thing that keeps coming up is these PV modules that are made in China?
I have asked several times in several threads for examples of these.
Whenever I ask which ones say 'made in china'? all I get is crickets.
(Actually some of you said yours are Made in Mexico)
I am just wondering what brand of rooftop PV module is 'Made in China' and preferably from one of you who on here is a currently employed as PV professional (no disrespect to you retired guys :))
And no I dont mean those cheap RV / camping PV modules on Amazon, it has to be actual PV modules used in permitted grid tied residential solar in the US.
And yeah I know tons of stuff we install is made in china, LED lights, dimmers etc..
I just have never seen a PV module marked made in china.
There are plenty of them, for example: Yingli, Longi, Trina, and Jinko.

If the Chinese government is subsidizing these modules' manufacturers to make their products cheaper in this country, one might argue that they are indirectly subsidizing PV projects here in the US. Maybe we should let them.
 
This is not the selling point you think it is. It illustrates the inefficiency of solar versus fossil fuels, if it takes more absolute labor in the solar sphere to supply about 6% of US electrical power.
People need jobs. We can pay them to provide something tangibly useful or eliminate their jobs for 'efficiency' and leave them to spam call us with scams about our automobile extended warranty.

That's not even the half of it. Your counterpoint is just the opposite end of not comparing apples to apples as the original point was.

A thing that keeps coming up is these PV modules that are made in China?
...
"Most PV modules being made in China" is a very ten years ago thing to say.

There are plenty of them, for example: Yingli, Longi, Trina, and Jinko.
...

Last I heard much about those brands was ten years ago. Okay maybe eight.


Peak of installing Canadian Solar, for me, was ten years ago. They moved assembly to Vietnam and Thailand before we stopped installing them. On Wikipedia, the citation for the info about where Canadian solar produces modules cites an article about them moving production to the US, fwiw.

The modules my company installs now are assembled in Washington and Georgia states, Malaysia, and Singapore.

I believe the vast majority of silicon refining is still happening in China, but module assembly and other steps not so much, at least for the US market. And reportedly companies have been moving cell manufacture to the US. Due to the previous administration's policies, to be clear.
 
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