Useless "wall" and . . . receptacle?

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Jim you misunderstand.

I would handle it at rough, not after the place is finished, you should have noticed while roughing. If I see something missing that is to much to 'eat' than I get approval for an extra. I have that kind of time.

You work in a market that squeezes every nickle out of each job so you have to be cheap.

Thats not you fault or Allan's fault it is just the way it seems to be in repetitive house building.
 
Jim W in Tampa said:
iwire said:
All I can say is I am glad I don't work under conditions so tight that suppling an additional plastic single gang box, cheap receptacle, plate and a little 14/2 is worth my time deciding if I can afford to supply it. :shock:
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Bob,sometimes its not that simple.
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Bob, I'm with Jim on this one....imagine your first rough inspection on a 90 unit condo is when the 45th unit is roughed (scheduling delays with the building dept. :) ).....that's 45 outlets for the "re-do" crew".
That adds up...labor is the killer, not the material.


I am inclined to point the finger at the estimator and/or lead man on the job. Something like this should NOT be missed - it's very basic 2/6/12 rule of thumb.
 
I can't work that way, if I am assigned a job it's up to me, not the estimator, not the architect etc to make sure it is code compliant.

Particularly important with 90 units to do.

BUT, this goes with what I was trying to say.

I am given the time and am expected to look over the prints with a fine tooth comb for issues. I can usually find them pretty quickly and than the RFIs (requests for information) get sent out.

In Jim and Allan's situation as I understand it they have no time, no extra room for problems etc.

This is not their fault it is just the segment of the industry they are in. They have to keep it tight.

I just started a 250 x 125 retail store on Monday (Existing building Tennant fit up only), I did not see the prints till Monday morning.

I got the 3 guys working quickly than studied the prints to look for issues, I found some, they will be resolved before we spend money on those areas.

Its not my fault its drawn wrong but it is my fault it if I build it wrong.
 
celtic said:
I am inclined to point the finger at the estimator and/or lead man on the job. Something like this should NOT be missed - it's very basic 2/6/12 rule of thumb.
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Precisely, the estimator should have caught it but they did not.

That leaves the lead man on the job to catch it before walls close.

"Useless" is not a consideration, is it required by code or not?

Yes it's required and IMO the lead man should have brought this up before walls are closed.

By the way, personally I don't see it as useless at all, as has been mentioned great place to plug a vacuum or night light. :)
 
Bob's last two posts are on the money.
To add to them, I would say that a good lead man will catch these items while reviewing the prints. I know from experience not to trust what is on the prints or what the shop has sent to me as being complete. I hate the moment on a job when it is discovered something is wrong.

With that said, it is a good lead man who sees this, if the shop gives you too much work to be able to do this, then they will be eating a lot of extra work... sometimes a byproduct of low bidding.


Don't feel so bad - I was on an IBM job in the 80's. I heard a large commotion- there were maybe 600 men from all of the different trades working this job. The commotion was the "loud discussion" of how the freight elevator was not installed... now how does one miss something that big????
It happens :wink:
 
Pierre C Belarge said:
The commotion was the "loud discussion" of how the freight elevator was not installed... now how does one miss something that big????
It happens :wink:
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:lol:

The company did a seven story office building that had a bank of three elevators.

It was not until they where actually trying to build the elevator cabs that it was discovered one shaft was a few inches shy of being large enough.

The shafts had been made all the same, sounds good except one car was for passenger and freight service, it had front and rear doors.

On all seven floors the shaft had to gain a few inches.

OOPS! :lol: :lol:

I don't know who this cost money but any number of lead men from the GC, the steel workers, the masons the elevator installers, all had access to the shafts and the prints. :roll:
 
A lot depends on the contract.If what you bid on is the print then those needed for code items are now called extras.Code violation items should get caught on the rough by the lead man.Next step is to bring it up to the GC and your boss.If they say dont worry then fine.Most inspectors would not call you down over a few inches.
 
Jim this was in pasco and the particular inspector is well I wont use the word but the other inspectors will.I have brought him up several times over the past couple of years and there was an instance that his requirement almost killed a young girl after he was warned that what he wanted could and did result in danger.After he found out about what had happened he changed his want and said remove them if not covered.A couple of inches he will $30.tag a job over 1/2 an inch.I`m serious with this. :shock: He won`t budge on having a max brkr.size on an a/c match saying the manufacturer would not put that figure there if that is not required.No matter the min is 20 and the max is 35.But he will back track on 300.4 D :roll: He`s the kid that got his lunch money taken at the bus stop everyday and now can get back :twisted:
 
That guy would have had a field day at the Metropolitan condo project in WPB. Just walking around not even looking real hard there was (and still are) thousands of violations the rough in crew installed.

I couldn't take it anymore there...
 
allenwayne said:
...almost killed a young girl after he was warned that what he wanted could and did result in danger.
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Hey, what the guy does to unwind is his own personal business. Bungee cords and Wesson cooking oil have to come into the picture at some point.

Anyway, I'm with Bob. The guy laying out the house should catch it, that's his/her job. If the estimator didn't catch it, that's not an excuse for the foreman to omit and have to add it at the trim.
 
George the what someone does in thier spare time reference is well ,WARPED !!!!!!!Not trying to take away from the validity of if it should have been caught on the rough but the life of a pre-schooler is no joking matter.But I guess you don`t have kids yet or you wouldn`t make that type of statement.
Lets look at the whole picture 100`s of the same 2 story model.98`s are not required to have the 2 6 12 applied in this senario but in this one area the 2`s are.
We all know the NEC is a general minimum guideline and yes it might be a convienent place for a vacum or a table lamp if you want a table and a lamp in your way as you walk up a curved staircase and have to walk around a table as you go to your bedroom.
I am all for proper spacing but if an area that is a walkway and there is no disputing the fact that to get to any bedroom one must first go through this area.where does the NEC draw the line.What constitutes a hall and what constitutes a living area.It doesn`t.There isn`t even a definitive definition as to what constitutes a hall when a light and switch is required never mind when a hall becomes a living area.I have seen 1000`s upon 1000`s upon 1000`s of floor plans that I can`t remember one defining a hall way.Unless it was a commercial job and it was listed this way for egress.Now mechanical or storage area YES,No spacing required there.A family room YES 2,6,12 applies.Even a kitchen 2.6,12 applies.But in the areas that are not specified as to what they are it seems the NEC has allowed it to be up to the AHJ`S whim.
The lighting in a hall is another area that I have questioned AHJ`S on if there is an area that requires a light to conform to this article then it doesn`t need a receptacle if less than 10 ft measured along the centerline.And the 2,6,12 can`t be applied to this area.This became a heated argument after #1 insp.tagged a job for no light in a 3 ft X 3 ft area with a barrel ceiling and on reinspect # 2 INSPECTOR WANTED THE SPACING TO CONFORM TO LIVING AREA SPECS.
We all know that there are many areas of the code open to interpitation and that is the fault within.I had an inspector make us rip off 100`s of finished pieces of drywall around the front of the service panels because they extended more than the allowed amount past the enclosure.
But when I wanted to pay for and apply fire caulking on these same supposidly non fire rated areas it was turned down by the inspector .Sure I could have taken it to the chief but explain that to 25 CM`s and 100`s of homeowners that are waiting to close the sale.(Oh by the way you have to delay your closing so I can make a stand........Intimidation is one thing that the NEC does not address.Sure one might win the battle but what of the war.....
All of this for one anally retentive person...... :twisted:
 
Allan no matter how long your post is it is a simple question.

Is the receptacle outlet required by code or not?

It is not a hall it is a bedroom, the hall, if there is one is outside the bedroom.

The fact that you got away with it previously is not proof that is not required it only proves you do not follow the NEC.
 
Post length has nothing do do with anything here.The simple fact of is it required by code or not is the question.What constitutes a walk/hallway and what constitutes a living area.That in itself will hold the answer.Getting away with something is not what i am looking at i am all for compliance on a defifitive ruling but given the fact that an area can be 2 different things at the same time says to me.Hey someone has thier head where the sun doesn`t shine :lol:
 
Oh and if the NEC had a definitive ruling on this subject then I would be happy to follow it.But it doesn`t and there is no clear cut answer and all we have is conjecture to rely on.So I guess I am stuck with an individuals personal view on what an area is.I am not trying to argue with you but when there is a definitive article in print I will be more than happy to comply but when open to interpitation well that sits like dill spice in my jaw spit,spit,spit :roll:
 
Best way i have ever seen to answer what something is or isnt depends on the stamped set of prints.If time is spent on them with some dotted lines many arguments would never happen.The review department should also catch things like this but all they do is put a stamp on it (must comply with nec-------).Perhaps its a Florida problem but we have many non standard layouts.
 
allenwayne said:
Oh and if the NEC had a definitive ruling on this subject then I would be happy to follow it.But it doesn`t and there is no clear cut answer and all we have is conjecture to rely on.
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Ah Allan it does have a ruling

Bedrooms get the required 12' spacing.

Halls don't.

If you want to call the bedroom a hall that is your own misconception. :p
 
Jim the review dept here is a joke.Look at Caliente resort on 41 there are 18 12 unit condos and the review dept stamped the plans that had a panel over a washer in the condo unit.Easy fix swap to opposite side of wall.But you are right it should have been caught by the arcitect LOL , The review board LOL .The inspector saw the hanson box under the panel and approved the install but freaked when it was trimmed out for the final :? I took over after building #1 and the rest were in the hall but we moved 12 panels around and lost a fortune of $$$
 
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